Author Topic: VII Canonization of JPII and John XXIII set (Read 1681 times)

2Vermont · « **on:** September 30, 2013, 06:00:05 PM »

http://en.radiovaticana.va/articolo.asp?c=732952

On Divine Mercy Sunday.

Lord, have mercy.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #1 on:** September 30, 2013, 06:11:19 PM »

Something that I am finding interesting about this event that should be a red flag to those who aren't sure how to feel or what to think about this upcoming event is precisely that, that it is an upcoming event. I don't know a whole lot about the history of canonization, but I think you'd be hardpressed to find a time in Church history where a canonization was scheduled. The case for canonization would be presented to the Holy Office, a serious investigation would be done to determine whether or not the candidate was worthy of the cause, and if he was, he was canonized at the end of the process. If during the process he was found unworthy, the process ended. Never was the decision made that a canonization would occur, "but not for nine months." This is unprecedented, so far as I can tell.

And of course, neither of these men are deserving of being raised to the altar of sainthood. The one was, at best, a weak man with liberal sentiments and pet modernists and the other was (again, at best) a heretic who spread heresy to an entire world of Catholics through a rock-star persona. At worst, this latter man was an apostate as well.

Matto · « **Reply #2 on:** September 30, 2013, 06:24:24 PM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

And of course, neither of these men are deserving of being raised to the altar of sainthood. The one was, at best, a weak man with liberal sentiments and pet modernists and the other was (again, at best) a heretic who spread heresy to an entire world of Catholics through a rock-star persona. At worst, this latter man was an apostate as well.

I think you were very kind in your description of them.

bowler · « **Reply #3 on:** September 30, 2013, 07:42:38 PM »

I haven't watched television in like 15 years. Whenever I hear or see Obama while passing a TV screen or hearing a radio program it all seems surreal. I really don't believe this is happening, since it has no direct effect on me.

The same occurs with me with these Vatican II popes, and now JPII is to be made a saint. Surreal.

2Vermont · « **Reply #4 on:** September 30, 2013, 07:46:44 PM »

Quote from: bowler

I haven't watched television in like 15 years. Whenever I hear or see Obama while passing a TV screen or hearing a radio program it all seems surreal. I really don't believe this is happening, since it has no direct effect on me.

The same occurs with me with these Vatican II popes, and now JPII is to be made a saint. Surreal.

I think there are quite a number of folks who will seriously re-assess their relationship with NewChurch when this becomes official.

2Vermont · « **Reply #5 on:** September 30, 2013, 07:47:46 PM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Something that I am finding interesting about this event that should be a red flag to those who aren't sure how to feel or what to think about this upcoming event is precisely that, that it is an upcoming event. I don't know a whole lot about the history of canonization, but I think you'd be hardpressed to find a time in Church history where a canonization was scheduled. The case for canonization would be presented to the Holy Office, a serious investigation would be done to determine whether or not the candidate was worthy of the cause, and if he was, he was canonized at the end of the process. If during the process he was found unworthy, the process ended. Never was the decision made that a canonization would occur, "but not for nine months." This is unprecedented, so far as I can tell.

And of course, neither of these men are deserving of being raised to the altar of sainthood. The one was, at best, a weak man with liberal sentiments and pet modernists and the other was (again, at best) a heretic who spread heresy to an entire world of Catholics through a rock-star persona. At worst, this latter man was an apostate as well.

I think it's been upcoming since the day of his death.

bowler · « **Reply #6 on:** September 30, 2013, 08:13:18 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: bowler
I haven't watched television in like 15 years. Whenever I hear or see Obama while passing a TV screen or hearing a radio program it all seems surreal. I really don't believe this is happening, since it has no direct effect on me.

The same occurs with me with these Vatican II popes, and now JPII is to be made a saint. Surreal.

I think there are quite a number of folks who will seriously re-assess their relationship with NewChurch when this becomes official.

I doubt it. 80% of Catholics don't even go to mass, so they won't care one way or another. The other 20% are practically all Novus Ordo anyways and they don't see anything wrong with the Church. Whatever effect it has on the maybe 1% "Latin Mass" attendees is of little consequence to anything.

Personally I think they could declare JPII the new and improved God, and it does not affect me in the least. In one ear and out the other.

OHCA · « **Reply #7 on:** September 30, 2013, 10:30:26 PM »

Wonder if they'll ever do a "life of the saint" book about JPII for the "faithful" to model their lives after, and wonder if it'll mention kissing that filthy rag the koran? What a joke! And what a joke that JXXIII is going to be a "saint"--the one who flung the windows open and shook the unshakeable "Rock."

ThomisticPhilosopher · « **Reply #8 on:** September 30, 2013, 10:35:00 PM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Something that I am finding interesting about this event that should be a red flag to those who aren't sure how to feel or what to think about this upcoming event is precisely that, that it is an upcoming event. I don't know a whole lot about the history of canonization, but I think you'd be hardpressed to find a time in Church history where a canonization was scheduled. The case for canonization would be presented to the Holy Office, a serious investigation would be done to determine whether or not the candidate was worthy of the cause, and if he was, he was canonized at the end of the process. If during the process he was found unworthy, the process ended. Never was the decision made that a canonization would occur, "but not for nine months." This is unprecedented, so far as I can tell.

And of course, neither of these men are deserving of being raised to the altar of sainthood. The one was, at best, a weak man with liberal sentiments and pet modernists and the other was (again, at best) a heretic who spread heresy to an entire world of Catholics through a rock-star persona. At worst, this latter man was an apostate as well.

Ohh the whole timeline issue has to deal with Mr. Bergoglio trying to accomodate to "pilgrims" since he wants this to be the star of his pontificate. "Look I am not even a Catholic", in your face.

They were going to do it already, but because of "winter" it would have made it difficult for certain European countries to come to the :heretic: "canonizations." Its all logistics... I agree like always, its setting completely new precedents in a history of an office which has no equal. It is difficult to break precedent, but somehow he still does it. Isn't that wonderful.

, gentleman. Things get better

by the day .

:dwarf: The battle has begun indeed, those who are lukewarm will not live through the upcoming crisis.

2Vermont · « **Reply #9 on:** October 01, 2013, 04:41:00 AM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: bowler
I haven't watched television in like 15 years. Whenever I hear or see Obama while passing a TV screen or hearing a radio program it all seems surreal. I really don't believe this is happening, since it has no direct effect on me.

The same occurs with me with these Vatican II popes, and now JPII is to be made a saint. Surreal.

I think there are quite a number of folks who will seriously re-assess their relationship with NewChurch when this becomes official.

I doubt it. 80% of Catholics don't even go to mass, so they won't care one way or another. The other 20% are practically all Novus Ordo anyways and they don't see anything wrong with the Church. Whatever effect it has on the maybe 1% "Latin Mass" attendees is of little consequence to anything.

Personally I think they could declare JPII the new and improved God, and it does not affect me in the least. In one ear and out the other.

Will it be a substantial number of folks that will "make a difference" in New Church? Probably not. But I know for a fact that some who are indeed questioning who consider this a big deal. It will help them jump ship for sure. I know it is big for me.

ThomisticPhilosopher · « **Reply #10 on:** October 01, 2013, 12:20:56 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: bowler
I haven't watched television in like 15 years. Whenever I hear or see Obama while passing a TV screen or hearing a radio program it all seems surreal. I really don't believe this is happening, since it has no direct effect on me.

The same occurs with me with these Vatican II popes, and now JPII is to be made a saint. Surreal.

I think there are quite a number of folks who will seriously re-assess their relationship with NewChurch when this becomes official.

I doubt it. 80% of Catholics don't even go to mass, so they won't care one way or another. The other 20% are practically all Novus Ordo anyways and they don't see anything wrong with the Church. Whatever effect it has on the maybe 1% "Latin Mass" attendees is of little consequence to anything.

Personally I think they could declare JPII the new and improved God, and it does not affect me in the least. In one ear and out the other.

Will it be a substantial number of folks that will "make a difference" in New Church? Probably not. But I know for a fact that some who are indeed questioning who consider this a big deal. It will help them jump ship for sure. I know it is big for me.

Well I think if the major apologist like Sungenis, Michael Voris, and those who are in the conservative camp. Also if any other major figure who was holding the line with Vatican II jumps ship that will definitely make Novus Ordites re-think and assess the situation. People do not realize how much of an influence they have and they will certainly pay a whole lot more dearly then the Catholic who does not have so much to respond to. It will cost them in dollars but what is more important is that they are doing a real service to the Church, by their personal example.

ThomisticPhilosopher · « **Reply #11 on:** October 01, 2013, 12:52:34 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: bowler
I haven't watched television in like 15 years. Whenever I hear or see Obama while passing a TV screen or hearing a radio program it all seems surreal. I really don't believe this is happening, since it has no direct effect on me.

The same occurs with me with these Vatican II popes, and now JPII is to be made a saint. Surreal.

I think there are quite a number of folks who will seriously re-assess their relationship with NewChurch when this becomes official.

I doubt it. 80% of Catholics don't even go to mass, so they won't care one way or another. The other 20% are practically all Novus Ordo anyways and they don't see anything wrong with the Church. Whatever effect it has on the maybe 1% "Latin Mass" attendees is of little consequence to anything.

Personally I think they could declare JPII the new and improved God, and it does not affect me in the least. In one ear and out the other.

The 1% is a huge consequence bowler, don't underestimate it. Even one lost sheep was worth all of Cavalry, in the early Church every single convert was a joy to the Church. The same goes through every age of the Church, and we are supposing here real converts not the phony protestant converts that are being brought into the Church. Too many folks bring in old baggage when they convert, instead of starting with a clean slate ready to receive from the Church everything that their intellect needs to assent to.

Reminds me of someone who was a mother and an older gentleman were "integrated" into the Church from Protestantism after going to Medjugorje. Well I was interested in seeing the "fruits" since I knew that it was an apostate devil appearing over there. Well as I am talking to both of them (who I knew very well before and after) the man who had spoken with the "priest" had explicitly told him that he will not ever change his views on ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity (it is innate, i.e. God made homos). The same thing was true with the mom and on many other topics dealing with the moral sphere they had totally rejected Catholic teaching on pretty much everything. Nevertheless the apostate wanna be priest integrated them into the schismatic Church of modernism, instead of the Catholic Church of which they had no desire to enter into. After a good while of talking with him, he agreed that the Catholic Church in the past had a different teaching, but that he only accepts the new teaching. Now that is what I call a "formal" heretic with pertinacity, if you could ever see one, this is truly when one can start rejecting communion. If they truly understand the issue at hand, that is sufficient for me.

Also those who hold the rigorist view of EENS, you need to understand that the whole question is with respect to justification which is a very difficult topic. From what I have gathered in my reading it is pretty clear that explicit baptism of desire has been taught for well over a thousand years, stemming back even more. However a period of 1,000 years strong with respect to BOD (BOB falls within BOD). Now it is clear that the whole invincible ignorance is reeking with modernism, and it is very difficult to have it under "proper" Catholic perspective. I will let real theologians handle the matter, for Catholics this should not concern them. These are more finer points of theology and are not necessary completely to know every single detail in order to be saved. So long as you do not deny in reality, or put the Church's ex cathedra statements into a meaningless formula, you have not sinned mortally against faith. The sad thing is that many folks have reduced it down to a meaningless formula and I would question whether they would be saved or not, given how little they care for Dogma and Doctrine. Also holding the view of explicit BOD did not reduce any of the missionary zeal of the Church one iota for centuries. Lumen Gentium and Vatican II did completely destroy the missionary zeal of the Church, preventing converts from entering the Church because of ecuмenism etc... They have reduced the formula to a meaningless thing, its just there to keep things good in paper. It no longer serves as the De Facto or De Jure teaching of the magisterium of the Conciliarist Church.

AlligatorDicax · « **Reply #12 on:** October 01, 2013, 03:32:14 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont (Sep 30, 2013, 7:00 pm

[V-II Canonization of JPII and John XXIII set] On Divine Mercy Sunday.

I'm shocked, just shocked!  It'll be April 27, following a relatively late Paschal Full Moon (April 14), thus Easter (April 20), which in 2014 both fall in their last allowed calendar weeks. The Tiber River should be thawed by then, right? Maybe even the Rhine?

Quote from: ThomisticPhilosopher (Sep 30, 2013, 11:35 pm)

Ohh the whole timeline issue has to deal with Mr. Bergoglio trying to accomodate ~~ to ~~ "pilgrims" since he wants this to be the star of his pontificate. "Look I am not even a Catholic", in your face. They were going to do it already, but because of "winter" it would have made it difficult for certain European countries to come to the "canonizations." Its all logistics.

Far be it from me, writing from Florida, to dare to cast doubt on anyone else's goal of pandering to tourism.

Instead, I believe the date was chosen primarily with the goal of pandering to the memories of John-Paul II and his modern pet Polish Catholic mystic, whom he canonized on April 30, 2000 (which was Low Sunday): Maria Faustina Kowalska, a nun of, um, questionably literacy, who is promoted as the alleged author of Divine Mercy in My Soul (1987), in which she claims multiple visits from Jesus, including personal conversations with Him, quoted in detail.

As I understand traditional Catholicism, we're not bound by the Church to believe any personal claims of divine or saintly visits or visions, nor any personal prophecies or revelations.

But Sr. Kowalska's alleged visits/visions/apparitions have been swallowed hook, line, and sinker by organizations like EWTN, which present the alleged apparition's words, as claimed by Sr. Kowalska, as direct quotes attributed--with no hedging language whatsoever--to Jesus (e.g.: "Concerning the Feast of Mercy Jesus said:")!

Less than a month after Sr. Kowalska's visits/visions/apparitions were endorsed via Novus Ordo canonization, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments proclaimed:

Quote from: CDW&DS per [url=http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/feast.htm

EWTN[/url]*]"throughout the world the ~~ Second Sunday ~~ Octave Day of Easter will receive the name Divine Mercy Sunday, a perennial invitation to the Christian world to face, with confidence in divine benevolence, the difficulties and trials that mankind will experience in the years to come.

Ponder the audacity: Repurposing the especially holy Octave Day of Easter itself!

------
Note *: May 23, 2000: ferial Tue. after 4th Sun. after Easter. Strike-thru & italics added to clarify the confusing Novus Ordo specification of the date in <http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/feast.htm>.

RomanCatholic1953 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 01, 2013, 03:43:46 PM »

Canonization of JPII and John XXIII, No way.