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Author Topic: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes  (Read 3569 times)

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Offline Romulus

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Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
« Reply #75 on: August 05, 2021, 10:28:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on August 01, 2021, 10:34:55 AM
    He is EIGHTY, Lad.  He's been at the very epicenter of this incomparable ecclesiastical mess for over FIFTY years!!  Wanting a grown-ass man who darn well ought to be a well-trained cleric to be an actual shepherd and just call a damn spade a spade is NOT asking too much.

    Watch your profanity...
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    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #76 on: August 05, 2021, 10:51:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 05, 2021, 06:33:09 AM
    Actually, Sedes are like the Jєωιѕн revolutionaries, because Sedes want to take over and make everyone believe as they do. They don't want any trad to not think like them; hence, they have been allowed to take over this forum. Sedeism and Modernism are just two sides of the same coin. Some will say that Modernism is worse, but I don't agree. Tradition is doomed, unless trads focus on what is important. Maybe there's a reason why God has allowed the Modernists to take over the church, and for the Sedes to take over Tradition. The Sedes will guarantee that Tradition will never return to the conciliar church.
    It boils down to this every time: R&R needs dogmatic Sedevacantism as a strawman. Thankfully Meg acknowledges in her last couple of sentences what Sedes always say, that either you accept NOM or Sedevacante. Perhaps all RnRs here should read her post here. I'm glad she finally sees the issue as I do.
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    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #77 on: August 05, 2021, 11:16:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: bodeens on August 05, 2021, 10:51:42 AM
    It boils down to this every time: R&R needs dogmatic Sedevacantism as a strawman. Thankfully Meg acknowledges in her last couple of sentences what Sedes always say, that either you accept NOM or Sedevacante. Perhaps all RnRs here should read her post here. I'm glad she finally sees the issue as I do.
    It's worth me making a distinction that her language and phrasing of these issues is incorrect but that her basic idea of the dualistic situation between the counterfeit VII sect and Tradition is correct and that RnR should examine this position more carefully. I wholeheartedly agree with her prescription that "Tradition will never return to the conciliar church". Excellent phrasing Meg, I couldn't agree more.

    Quote from: Meg on August 05, 2021, 09:49:07 AM
    What does holiness of life and virtue mean to sedevacantists? Do they believe that the highest virtue is to proclaim that the See of Rome is vacant? It seems so. Can they get to Heaven upon this one supposed all-consuming virtue of theirs?
    Discussion of membership in the Church goes in the Feeneyism Ghetto ;)
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #78 on: August 05, 2021, 11:25:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: bodeens on August 05, 2021, 11:16:16 AM
    It's worth me making a distinction that her language and phrasing of these issues is incorrect but that her basic idea of the dualistic situation between the counterfeit VII sect and Tradition is correct and that RnR should examine this position more carefully. I wholeheartedly agree with her prescription that "Tradition will never return to the conciliar church". Excellent phrasing Meg, I couldn't agree more.
    Discussion of membership in the Church goes in the Feeneyism Ghetto ;)

    Do you believe that it's an essential virtue to proclaim that the See in Rome is vacant?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #79 on: August 05, 2021, 11:27:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 05, 2021, 11:25:12 AM
    Do you believe that it's an essential virtue to proclaim that the See in Rome is vacant?
    I can't tell if you're joking but no, I'm not a dogmatic Sedevacantist. So now that you've said that Tradition has left the conciliar church permanently are you coming home or what?
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    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.

    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #80 on: August 05, 2021, 11:28:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 05, 2021, 11:25:12 AM
    Do you believe that it's an essential virtue to proclaim that the See in Rome is vacant?
    Do you believe it is essential for salvation to believe that Jorge Bergoglio is Pope?
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #81 on: August 05, 2021, 11:29:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Hermes on August 05, 2021, 11:28:27 AM
    Do you believe it is essential for salvation to believe that Jorge Bergoglio is Pope?

    I asked you first. I realize it's a difficult question.
    ::)
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #82 on: August 05, 2021, 11:35:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 05, 2021, 11:29:26 AM
    I asked you first. I realize it's a difficult question.
    ::)
    You asked someone else a similar question first, you mean.

    It’s not a difficult question at all. It is not essential for salvation to believe that Jorge Bergoglio is an anti-Pope, but it is essential for salvation that one reject his false teachings and that of his conciliar predecessors and by extension their prelates which is much easier, and in line with Traditional Catholic thought, if you believe they are anti-Popes and phony ecclesiastics.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #83 on: August 05, 2021, 11:37:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: Hermes on August 05, 2021, 11:35:00 AM
    You asked someone else a similar question first, you mean.

    It’s not a difficult question at all. It is not essential for salvation to believe that Jorge Bergoglio is an anti-Pope, but it is essential for salvation that one reject his false teachings and that of his conciliar predecessors and by extension their prelates.

    I don't see that there's much of a difference between the two issues that you describe above.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #84 on: August 05, 2021, 11:40:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 05, 2021, 11:37:21 AM
    I don't see that there's much of a difference between the two issues that you describe above.
    ??
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    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #85 on: August 05, 2021, 11:46:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 05, 2021, 11:37:21 AM
    I don't see that there's much of a difference between the two issues that you describe above.

    Please clarify in more detail.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #86 on: August 05, 2021, 12:13:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Hermes on August 05, 2021, 11:35:00 AM
    You asked someone else a similar question first, you mean.

    It’s not a difficult question at all. It is not essential for salvation to believe that Jorge Bergoglio is an anti-Pope, but it is essential for salvation that one reject his false teachings and that of his conciliar predecessors and by extension their prelates which is much easier, and in line with Traditional Catholic thought, if you believe they are anti-Popes and phony ecclesiastics.

    What you seem to be saying is that we can either believe that Bergolio is an anti-Pope (and therefore can safely reject all of his false teachings and that of all of his conciliar predecessors and prelates, which is easier as a sedevacantist), and this is not essential for salvation....or, we can and must for the sake of salvation reject all of Bergolio's false teachings and that of his conciliar predecessors and prelates.

    I don't see that there's much of a difference between the two stances above, except that one is necessary for salvation, and one isn't.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #87 on: August 05, 2021, 12:21:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 05, 2021, 12:13:05 PM
    What you seem to be saying is that we can either believe that Bergolio is an anti-Pope (and therefore can safely reject all of his false teachings and that of all of his conciliar predecessors and prelates, which is easier as a sedevacantist), and this is not essential for salvation....or, we can and must for the sake of salvation reject all of Bergolio's false teachings and that of his conciliar predecessors and prelates.

    I don't see that there's much of a difference between the two stances above, except that one is necessary for salvation, and one isn't.

    Being Sedevacantist is not essential for salvation.

    Rejecting false conciliar and post-conciliar teachings, doctrines, disciplines, and liturgy is essential for salvation.

    You can reject these teachings as an R&R Catholic too which is what many do and did (+Lefebvre, +Williamson, Fr. Wathen, et al).
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #88 on: August 05, 2021, 12:27:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Hermes on August 05, 2021, 12:21:32 PM
    Being Sedevacantist is not essential for salvation.
    Exactly. It is a theological position on this crisis and a statement of fact during any papal interregnum. One could be a member of any of the many false religions and be a sedevacantist, as all it is is a recognition that the See of Peter is vacant.
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