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Author Topic: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes  (Read 5396 times)

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Offline Tradman

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Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2021, 09:47:44 AM »
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  • Vigano avoided calling Francis heretic for good reason. As the speaker of some authority, he'd be setting himself up as pope. His message stems from great humility. He criticized the Novus Ordo/VII in the hope of opening the eyes of people, encouraging them to reach higher spiritually, because he knows that unless more people come to the TLM, faith will fall even lower and necessary resistance to rising tyranny and NWO will be inadequate.   

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #16 on: August 01, 2021, 10:26:21 AM »
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  • No, he’s saying that we must be holy to win back the grace of having the Mass.
    That shouldn't be too hard.  It's not as if we're trying to survive on physical, intellectual and spiritual scraps in the midst of an unfathomably evil society while almost-universally deprived of access to the greatest means of grace. 
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #17 on: August 01, 2021, 10:34:55 AM »
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  • So you expect the man to become full-blown sedevacantist overnight?  He’s already adopted basically the Resistance position and is clearly now mulling the implications of having a non-Catholic pope.  You’ve been ripping on him since he first started writing about V2 and the New Mass.

    He is EIGHTY, Lad.  He's been at the very epicenter of this incomparable ecclesiastical mess for over FIFTY years!!  Wanting a grown-ass man who darn well ought to be a well-trained cleric to be an actual shepherd and just call a damn spade a spade is NOT asking too much.

    While you think others unjustly rip him, from the (admittedly) little I have seen, your take is far too kind and (groundlessly?) hopeful.  Men like him have had their chance to do the right thing during the last, say, FIFTY years.  They've completely failed and looking to them for solid help in the ecclesiastical realm is like looking to men like DT for solid help in the civil realm -- not gonna happen.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #18 on: August 01, 2021, 10:41:42 AM »
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  • I have recently kept my mind open to him, but that phrase I highlighted shows he is passing the buck...and he took over 2 weeks to write it...

    FIFTY. YEARS.

    Not. Gonna. Happen.

    Octogenarians will not be part of the solutions to the present crises.  They gave away the store and will die wandering in the desert, just as the Israelites of old.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #19 on: August 01, 2021, 11:38:52 AM »
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  • Archbishop Lefebvre was the leading figure in Traditional Catholicism for about 15 years, and never pulled the trigger on becoming a sedevacantist.  Not a few priests have (or had) been Traditional Catholic for 50 years without going sedevacantist.

    +Vigano has gone from a high-level Conciliar official to a Resistance position in about 2 years, leapfrogging over the SSPX, which has passed over to the left of him.  So God knows where his journey will lead him.

    Lots of people spent decades in the Conciliar Church before receiving the GRACE to be awakened. I capitalize the word to bring to your attention that you did nothing to deserve it.  Perhaps the graces he received in battling the sodomites led to other graces, and then he went into hiding and started to offer the True Mass, which of course led to many other graces.  It's only by the grace of God that you have been Traditional Catholics longer, and you need to remind yourselves of that.

    You remind me of the parable regarding the laborers who toiled all day in the vineyard and then resented those who came at the 11th hour and got paid the same.  This is precisely the point of the parable, that everything either group received was due to the generosity of the Master, Who can choose do distribute His graces as He pleases.

    I don't understand the contempt that many sedevacantists have for +Vigano; that's the kindof stuff that makes sedevacantism look bad to a lot of people.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #20 on: August 01, 2021, 11:42:42 AM »
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  • FIFTY. YEARS.

    Not. Gonna. Happen.

    Octogenarians will not be part of the solutions to the present crises.  They gave away the store and will die wandering in the desert, just as the Israelites of old.

    Well, the Catholics prophecies that seem to relate to this crisis mention an elderly Holy Pope along with the Great Monarch.  God will decide how He will lead us out of the crisis and whom He'll use to do it.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #21 on: August 01, 2021, 01:16:38 PM »
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  •  There’s more than one way to skin a cat.  But for some of you, there’s only 1 way, or else you’re not happy.  

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #22 on: August 01, 2021, 02:04:26 PM »
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  • That shouldn't be too hard.  It's not as if we're trying to survive on physical, intellectual and spiritual scraps in the midst of an unfathomably evil society while almost-universally deprived of access to the greatest means of grace.
    It's not as if the Japanese Catholics didn't do that for 300+ years on much less. Where sin abounds grace doth more abound? Maybe that's how we get sanctified.
    Just sayin'.


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #23 on: August 01, 2021, 02:16:25 PM »
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  • It's not as if the Japanese Catholics didn't do that for 300+ years on much less. Where sin abounds grace doth more abound? Maybe that's how we get sanctified.
    Just sayin'.

    How truly analogous do you think that era is to the modern world?

    Modern food is utter trash, electro-smog and The Machine of Mind-F*ckery are ubiquitous, Japan was ONE barren place in a world FULL of certainly-valid Masses and countless Saints, etc... [I could easily go on and on enumerating notable differences.]

    Just sayin  ;)
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #24 on: August 01, 2021, 02:22:55 PM »
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  • Well, the Catholics prophecies that seem to relate to this crisis mention an elderly Holy Pope along with the Great Monarch.  God will decide how He will lead us out of the crisis and whom He'll use to do it.

    I have read them, many times.  I don't recall anything specifically mentioning an elderly Pope.  I readily admit I haven't bothered to read any of that for a decade, so please feel free to share any citations you believe are useful.

    FWIW, the GM is nowhere on the horizon as far as I can tell.  Would that he were, but I think we're in for a grueling stretch between now and the foretold restoration (2038?).

    As you say, God will use whom He chooses, but gutless V2-Moderns who were adults in the 60s are not likely candidates.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #25 on: August 01, 2021, 02:30:08 PM »
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  • It's only by the grace of God that you have been Traditional Catholics longer, and you need to remind yourselves of that.

    I don't understand the contempt that many sedevacantists have for +Vigano; that's the kindof stuff that makes sedevacantism look bad to a lot of people.

    Thanks for the advice and coming across as if you know my mind and heart, but I am well aware of the situation.  I simply don't see any truly solid reason to place hope of any kind in modern men, period.  The foretold solution to these sad times, as you should know, will clearly involve miracles of an unfathomable kind and degree and it will be crystal clear to the entire (surviving) world that GOD ALONE healed the mess that men created.

    I don't have contempt for him; I just don't buy into whatever you, Sean, et alii do.  C'est la vie.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #26 on: August 01, 2021, 02:37:01 PM »
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  • I don't have contempt for him; I just don't buy into whatever you, Sean, et alii do.  C'est la vie.

    Well, perhaps I misread your comments in the context of others who have put a great deal of their contempt for him on display.  In that case, I apologize.

    Whether or not he is THE "Holy Pope" to come, he's certainly doing a lot of good, making the notion that V2 and the NOM are radically defective (vs. just 5% that can be corrected with a few tweaks) more acceptable even in the Motu/Indult crowds.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #27 on: August 01, 2021, 03:13:55 PM »
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  • Well, perhaps I misread your comments in the context of others who have put a great deal of their contempt for him on display.  In that case, I apologize.

    Whether or not he is THE "Holy Pope" to come, he's certainly doing a lot of good, making the notion that V2 and the NOM are radically defective (vs. just 5% that can be corrected with a few tweaks) more acceptable even in the Motu/Indult crowds.

    Time will tell.  I'd be thrilled if he -- or anyone else, for that matter, presently in Rome/Vatican -- is the Pope of the time of the GM, because that would mean this difficult time will end sooner than appears to be the case.

    I happily confess that I tend to believe most moderns of reasonably good will are so beat down and worked over by the aforementioned Machine and the taxing nature of these times that they take something which is only moderately positive for much more than it really is.  I'd argue our intellectual/spiritual/etc depth perception, so to speak, is in desperate need of recalibration.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline AspiringToHeaven

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #28 on: August 01, 2021, 03:43:30 PM »
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  • The idea of a “non-Catholic pope” is a total absurdity on par with the ideas of “square triangles” or “compassionate abortionists.” It’s just this kind of desperate nonsense that drove me away from the R&R camp. I couldn’t take it any more. 

    Popes must be Catholic.
    As a pertinacious, manifest heretic, Jorge Bergoglio is not Catholic.
    Therefore Jorge Bergoglio is not pope.

    One cannot be the head of a body of which he is not a member. 

    Offline AspiringToHeaven

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #29 on: August 01, 2021, 03:53:37 PM »
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  • That shouldn't be too hard.  It's not as if we're trying to survive on physical, intellectual and spiritual scraps in the midst of an unfathomably evil society while almost-universally deprived of access to the greatest means of grace.

    Well said. Well said indeed. Few truly understand the depths of today’s insane impoverishment.