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Author Topic: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes  (Read 5412 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2021, 03:56:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: AspiringToHeaven on August 01, 2021, 03:43:30 PM
    The idea of a “non-Catholic pope” is a total absurdity on par with the ideas of “square triangles” or “compassionate abortionists.” It’s just this kind of desperate nonsense that drove me away from the R&R camp. I couldn’t take it any more.

    Not if you're a sedeprivationist or else follow more of the Cajetan / John of St. Thomas position.  Father Chazal is correct in stating that many sedevacantists elevate the Bellarmine position to dogma.  Depending on which position you hold on the matter, the V2 papal claimants could be popes secundum quid even if they are heretics (i.e. non-Catholics).
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #31 on: August 01, 2021, 03:57:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: AspiringToHeaven on August 01, 2021, 03:43:30 PM
    The idea of a “non-Catholic pope” is a total absurdity on par with the ideas of “square triangles” or “compassionate abortionists.” It’s just this kind of desperate nonsense that drove me away from the R&R camp. I couldn’t take it any more.

    Popes must be Catholic.
    As a pertinacious, manifest heretic, Jorge Bergoglio is not Catholic.
    Therefore Jorge Bergoglio is not pope.

    One cannot be the head of a body of which he is not a member.
    The one I heard from my SSPX priest today was that sedevacantists are subjectively judging the Pope, comparing it to the parable of the Pharisee and Publican, when we need to remain objective in our assessments. I love Father, but no, participating in idolatrous acts (Pachamama, Assisi, etc.), publicly defaming the Trinity, deriding Catholic tradition, et al, are acts performed objectively. These are not judgments of his interior motivations.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #32 on: August 01, 2021, 03:58:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on August 01, 2021, 03:57:11 PM
    The one I heard from my SSPX priest today was that sedevacantists are subjectively judging the Pope, comparing it to the parable of the Pharisee and Publican, when we need to remain objective in our assessments. I love Father, but no, participating in idolatrous acts (Pachamama, Assisi, etc.), publicly defaming the Trinity, deriding Catholic tradition, et al, are acts performed objectively. These are not judgments of his interior motivations.

    Yeah, they've long tried to pull off the analogy with a "bad parent".  And even the "faith is greater than obedience" maxim is completely misapplied.  We're talking about obedience not to some simple positive command but subjection to the Magisterium.

    And this whole notion of "judging" someone's interior dispositions derives from a distortion of what "formal" heresy means.  That term has long bee subjectivized in the interest of undermining EENS dogma.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #33 on: August 01, 2021, 04:13:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 01, 2021, 03:58:54 PM
    Yeah, they've long tried to pull off the analogy with a "bad parent".  And even the "faith is greater than obedience" maxim is completely misapplied.  We're talking about obedience not to some simple positive command but subjection to the Magisterium.

    And this whole notion of "judging" someone's interior dispositions derives from a distortion of what "formal" heresy means.  That term has long bee subjectivized in the interest of undermining EENS dogma.
    Yeah, it was tough to hear. He was using the "we've had bad Popes before" argument, which just doesn't apply to men who publicly commit acts of heresy and apostasy. Alexander VI is called a "bad Pope" (which might have more to do with propaganda than truth) but he never did anything through his office as Pope that was antithetical to the Faith.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #34 on: August 01, 2021, 04:22:57 PM »
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    • Many prophecies talk of 1-2 holy pope’s, who are killed after short reigns, before the Angelic pope arrives, who then crowns the Great Monarch.  
    .
    There are also a few prophecies who say that the restoration of the Church happens so fast, that people are amazed and taken aback.  As times get worse and evil gets bolder, God will respond in kind.  
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #35 on: August 01, 2021, 04:29:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 01, 2021, 04:22:57 PM
    Many prophecies talk of 1-2 holy pope’s, who are killed after short reigns, before the Angelic pope arrives, who then crowns the Great Monarch.  
    .
    There are also a few prophecies who say that the restoration of the Church happens so fast, that people are amazed and taken aback.  As times get worse and evil gets bolder, God will respond in kind.  
    Soon, I hope
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #36 on: August 01, 2021, 04:31:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: AspiringToHeaven on August 01, 2021, 03:43:30 PM
    The idea of a “non-Catholic pope” is a total absurdity on par with the ideas of “square triangles” or “compassionate abortionists.” It’s just this kind of desperate nonsense that drove me away from the R&R camp. I couldn’t take it any more.

    Popes must be Catholic.
    As a pertinacious, manifest heretic, Jorge Bergoglio is not Catholic.
    Therefore Jorge Bergoglio is not pope.

    One cannot be the head of a body of which he is not a member.

    Indeed, even the idea of a manifestly heretic Catholic (layman) (not confessing the faith but rather confessing heresy) is absurd, which is the reason why divine law imposes what's known as ipso facto excommunication.
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    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #37 on: August 01, 2021, 04:36:30 PM »
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    • The truely Catholic prophecy appying to the abomination we're witnessing is 2 Thess 2.

    Lord, come soon!
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    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #38 on: August 01, 2021, 04:41:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on August 01, 2021, 04:31:56 PM
    Indeed, even the idea of a manifestly heretic Catholic (layman) (not confessing the faith but rather confessing heresy) is absurd, which is the reason why divine law imposes what's known as ipso facto excommunication.
    And I thought that Nancy Peℓσѕι and Joe Biden were Catholics in good standing?  :laugh1:
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #39 on: August 01, 2021, 04:47:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on August 01, 2021, 04:41:58 PM
    And I thought that Nancy Peℓσѕι and Joe Biden were Catholics in good standing?  :laugh1:
    How dare you?


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    O Fortuna
    Velut luna

    Offline JOANORCM

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #40 on: August 01, 2021, 06:10:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on August 01, 2021, 04:36:30 PM
    The truely Catholic prophecy appying to the abomination we're witnessing is 2 Thess 2.

    Lord, come soon!
    Yes! Come Lord Jesus Christ! :pray:
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    2 Thessalonians 2

    Offline AspiringToHeaven

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #41 on: August 01, 2021, 07:01:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on August 01, 2021, 04:31:56 PM
    Indeed, even the idea of a manifestly heretic Catholic (layman) (not confessing the faith but rather confessing heresy) is absurd, which is the reason why divine law imposes what's known as ipso facto excommunication.

    As I just now said elsewhere:

    If you and I were non-Catholics, we would be outside the Church. Yet according to R&R adherents, somehow the manifestly non-Catholic Bergoglio gets to be pope! The non-Catholic, indeed rabidly anti-Catholic, Bergoglio magically gets to be the head of a body of which he’s not a member. Absurd. Madness!

    Rather:

    Popes must be Catholic.
    As a manifest, pertinacious heretic, Bergoglio is not Catholic.
    Therefore, Bergoglio is not pope.

    No judgement of any council is required, nor possible, as a pope is judged by no man or council of men. Manifest, pertinacious heretics automatically fall from office. This is the way they lose their office, since no man can judge them. That’s assuming he ever actually became pope at all, a notion I reject. Only Catholics can become popes. Bergoglio was a foaming heretic long before he “took office” in 2013.

    One cannot be the head of a body of which he is not a member. There are no “non-Catholic popes.”

    If the Novus Ordo organization is the Catholic Church, then the Church has defected. But we’re divinely assured that the Church cannot defect. Hence the Novus Ordo organization cannot possibly be the actual Catholic Church. Where is the actual Catholic Church? I don’t know. But I’m certain where it isn’t: in Rome, headed by the vile, rabidly anti-Catholic Jorge Bergoglio and his fellow wolves.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #42 on: August 01, 2021, 07:55:48 PM »
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #43 on: August 01, 2021, 08:12:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: AspiringToHeaven on August 01, 2021, 07:01:36 PM
    As I just now said elsewhere:

    If you and I were non-Catholics, we would be outside the Church. Yet according to R&R adherents, somehow the manifestly non-Catholic Bergoglio gets to be pope! The non-Catholic, indeed rabidly anti-Catholic, Bergoglio magically gets to be the head of a body of which he’s not a member. Absurd. Madness!

    Well, Salza was backed into a corner and had to affirm that Joe Biden is in fact a Catholic in good standing.  Meanwhile, according to him, sedevacantists are outside the Church.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #44 on: August 01, 2021, 08:19:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: AspiringToHeaven on August 01, 2021, 07:01:36 PM
    Rather:

    Popes must be Catholic.
    As a manifest, pertinacious heretic, Bergoglio is not Catholic.
    Therefore, Bergoglio is not pope.

    No judgement of any council is required, nor possible, as a pope is judged by no man or council of men. Manifest, pertinacious heretics automatically fall from office. This is the way they lose their office, since no man can judge them.

    Unfortunately, it's not quite this simple.  While I lean in this direction, R&R would reject and/or qualify your minor.  They would perhaps argue that pertinacity is established in the external forum only after he remains pertinacious after formal admonition from the Church.  Who is competent to make a finding of pertinacity?  Fr. Cekada's "Aunt Helen"?  Now, it's much easier with Bergoglio, but it would have been much more difficult to establish pertinacity on the part of Ratzinger.

    With regard to the sentence beneath your syllogism, Cajetan, John of St. Thomas, and others distinguish that.  While they agree that no Pope can be judged juridically, the Church must intervene and make a "finding of fact" judgment against Bergoglio before he would be stripped of his office.  Then there's the material vs. formal distinction, that Bergoglio would remain in material possession of the office until the Church declares otherwise.

    Actually, the principles of sedeprivationism (which I strongly favor) reconcile the Bellarmine and Cajetan/John of St. Thomas positions quite nicely, and the quote adduced by St. Robert Bellarmine from St Celestine regarding the case of Nestorius would actually back up sedeprivationism.
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