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Author Topic: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes  (Read 5395 times)

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Offline Hermes

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Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
« on: July 31, 2021, 08:35:01 PM »
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #1 on: July 31, 2021, 09:11:19 PM »
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    • Quote
    We have come to the point that even simple people with little knowledge of doctrinal issues understand that we have a non-Catholic pope, at least in the strict sense of the term. 
    And he trips and stumbles right out of the gate
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #2 on: July 31, 2021, 10:31:25 PM »
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    • It's alright...everything unacceptable that emanates from Rome (which, apparently, is everything for decades) isn't official, so no worries.  You'd think Holy Mother Church would know how to conduct business in a way that was meaningful, but apparently She has been reduced to being merely the senile Whore of Babylon and none of her actions of the last 50+ years is official, etc.  What a relief!!!!  Indefectibility is SAVED!!!!!  :laugh2:
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #3 on: August 01, 2021, 03:34:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on July 31, 2021, 10:31:25 PM
    It's alright...everything unacceptable that emanates from Rome (which, apparently, is everything for decades) isn't official, so no worries.  You'd think Holy Mother Church would know how to conduct business in a way that was meaningful, but apparently She has been reduced to being merely the senile Whore of Babylon and none of her actions of the last 50+ years is official, etc.  What a relief!!!!  Indefectibility is SAVED!!!!!  :laugh2:
    Sad but true.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #4 on: August 01, 2021, 03:59:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on July 31, 2021, 09:11:19 PM
    And he trips and stumbles right out of the gate

    You skipped quoting the next sentence.  He says this causes canonical problems that will need to be sorted out.  In other words, it’s similar to the position adopted by +Lefebvre where he was inching toward sedevacantism but kept saying that it will have to be sorted out later.  This was in line with what he said earlier when asked about Bennyvacantism.

    I read this statement as his saying that it’s possible the See is vacant.  That might be why it took him so long to respond ... as I speculated before.  He was clearly grappling with these “canonical implications” of a non-Catholic pope.  Framing it this way implies that he’s probably pondering the Cajetan and John of St. Thomas position vs. Bellarmine.

    When a pope is a manifest heretic, SOMEONE has to be the first to call it out.  Someone has to get the ball rolling toward universal recognition of this fact.  His going sedevacantist would create extreme momentum towards that, so he’s afraid to take that first step.  I’ll write more when I’m not typing on my phone.

    He also felt the need to release a video to address the ghostwriting accusation.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #5 on: August 01, 2021, 04:02:15 AM »
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    • This is not a “stumble” ... if you actually understand what he’s saying.  It’s unrealistic to expect the man to go full dogmatic sedevacantist “right out of the gate”.  But this is CLEARLY a step in the direction of sedevacantism.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #6 on: August 01, 2021, 06:10:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 01, 2021, 03:59:23 AM
    You skipped quoting the next sentence.  He says this causes canonical problems that will need to be sorted out.  
    The exact words are:
    This poses some problems of a canonical nature that are not inconsiderable, which it is not up to us to solve but which sooner or later will have to be addressed.

    He doesn't plan on doing anything other than kicking the can down the road.

    Having said that, it is good to see that he has finally written his own response.  I will read it in its entirety probably tomorrow since I will only have intermittent access to the internet today. However, this sentence alone doesn't bode well for the rest of it. 
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #7 on: August 01, 2021, 06:35:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Viganò
    But in order for that theft to be repaired, it is necessary that we show ourselves to be worthy of the treasures that have been stolen from us. Let us try to do this by our holiness of life, by giving example of the virtues, by prayer and the frequent reception of the Sacraments. 

    He seems to be talking to Indulters. They have to frequently receive the NO sacraments of Antichrist (as a punishment), to earn back permission to worship God in the way God wishes to be worshipped.
    :fryingpan:
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    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #8 on: August 01, 2021, 07:18:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on August 01, 2021, 06:35:15 AM
    He seems to be talking to Indulters. They have to frequently receive the NO sacraments of Antichrist (as a punishment), to earn back permission to worship God in the way God wishes to be worshipped.
    :fryingpan:

    No, he’s saying that we must be holy to win back the grace of having the Mass.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #9 on: August 01, 2021, 07:21:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on August 01, 2021, 06:10:55 AM
    The exact words are:
    This poses some problems of a canonical nature that are not inconsiderable, which it is not up to us to solve but which sooner or later will have to be addressed.

    He doesn't plan on doing anything other than kicking the can down the road.

    Having said that, it is good to see that he has finally written his own response.  I will read it in its entirety probably tomorrow since I will only have intermittent access to the internet today. However, this sentence alone doesn't bode well for the rest of it.

    So you expect the man to become full-blown sedevacantist overnight?  He’s already adopted basically the Resistance position and is clearly now mulling the implications of having a non-Catholic pope.  You’ve been ripping on him since he first started writing about V2 and the New Mass.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #10 on: August 01, 2021, 07:23:32 AM »
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    • Even EWTN radio is ripping on Bergoglio ... in unprecedented fashion ... about Amoris Laetitia, Bergoglio’s promotion of LBGT, and even the recent Motu.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #11 on: August 01, 2021, 08:33:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 01, 2021, 07:23:32 AM
    Even EWTN radio is ripping on Bergoglio ... in unprecedented fashion ... about Amoris Laetitia, Bergoglio’s promotion of LBGT, and even the recent Motu.
    They're doing WHAT?

    I thought EWTN was basically the "amen corner" for the "conservative Novus Ordo".

    Is there a link to any kind of podcast or something?  I'd like to hear what they have to say.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #12 on: August 01, 2021, 08:44:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 01, 2021, 07:21:27 AM
    So you expect the man to become full-blown sedevacantist overnight?  He’s already adopted basically the Resistance position and is clearly now mulling the implications of having a non-Catholic pope.  You’ve been ripping on him since he first started writing about V2 and the New Mass.
    I have recently kept my mind open to him, but that phrase I highlighted shows he is passing the buck...and he took over 2 weeks to write it:  

    This poses some problems of a canonical nature that are not inconsiderable, which it is not up to us to solve but which sooner or later will have to be addressed.

    Wake up Ladislaus.  Unless the rest of what he wrote gives a different impression than that phrase (and I do intend to read it), he is NOT going to be the person who calls out Bergoglio as a manifest heretic. He is waiting for someone else to do the dirty work "sooner or later" (ie. it's not up to him).
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    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #13 on: August 01, 2021, 09:37:34 AM »
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    • To 2Vermont's point, if he is kicking the can down the road, it may mean that he knows he doesn't hold any Ordinary jurisdiction and meaningful condemnation must come from someone who does. Conversely, +Lefebvre was retired when he started the Society, so perhaps that will be considered by +Vigano. 
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    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Vigano Responds To Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #14 on: August 01, 2021, 09:43:17 AM »
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