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Author Topic: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione  (Read 20931 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #85 on: December 23, 2023, 04:46:18 PM »
I agree with you that we should not presume that Vigano has traditionally-valid Orders. As the Moral Theology manuals say, we must have "moral certainty" with regard to the Sacrament of Holy Orders. I will not support him financially until both he and his consecrators confirm publicly.


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I strongly agree with every word of this.

Quote
That said, I think the reason that Vigano doesn't want to make it public could be the "scandal" it would cause to non-Trads, including New Rite priests that might want to join him at his seminary. He may think it is too much for those people to digest at the moment. I am not defending that take on things. But I can see that as a valid concern if he is trying to attract people brainwashed by the Novus Ordo, which I think is his main target audience.

I just don't see it. Why would those people care that much if he got consecrated again, if they didn't think it was necessary? Worst case scenario, they would say he received a sacrament that was unnecessary or invalid, and that it was sacrilegious (though I doubt most conservative Novus Ordos have any concept of such things). But as far as discouraging new-rite priests from joining ... why would it? It certainly wouldn't take away his power to ordain priests, even if it was unnecessary. Whatever sin might be involved in an invalid conditional consecration would be only on his conscience in the worst case scenario. At most they might think it was a bit scrupulous. None of this amounts to an adequate reason for keeping the conditional consecration secret, if it did happen.




Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #86 on: December 23, 2023, 04:49:52 PM »
.

I strongly agree with every word of this.

I just don't see it. Why would those people care that much if he got consecrated again, if they didn't think it was necessary? Worst case scenario, they would say he received a sacrament that was unnecessary or invalid, and that it was sacrilegious (though I doubt most conservative Novus Ordos have any concept of such things). But as far as discouraging new-rite priests from joining ... why would it? It certainly wouldn't take away his power to ordain priests, even if it was unnecessary. Whatever sin might be involved in an invalid conditional consecration would be only on his conscience in the worst case scenario. At most they might think it was a bit scrupulous. None of this amounts to an adequate reason for keeping the conditional consecration secret, if it did happen.
What about his "Brother Bishops"?  


Offline Yeti

  • Supporter
Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #87 on: December 23, 2023, 05:04:31 PM »
What about his "Brother Bishops"? 
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Does he have any? I've never seen any Novus Ordo bishops say anything positive about him. The only bishops interested in him are independent trad bishops.

(Yet one more reason not to think there are any Novus Ordo "bishops" who have the Catholic Faith, by the way.)

Offline Quo vadis Domine

  • Supporter
Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #88 on: December 23, 2023, 05:09:34 PM »
What about his "Brother Bishops"? 

Yeah, that part gave me pause too.

Offline Angelus

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Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #89 on: December 23, 2023, 05:13:54 PM »
.

I strongly agree with every word of this.

I just don't see it. Why would those people care that much if he got consecrated again, if they didn't think it was necessary? Worst case scenario, they would say he received a sacrament that was unnecessary or invalid, and that it was sacrilegious (though I doubt most conservative Novus Ordos have any concept of such things). But as far as discouraging new-rite priests from joining ... why would it? It certainly wouldn't take away his power to ordain priests, even if it was unnecessary. Whatever sin might be involved in an invalid conditional consecration would be only on his conscience in the worst case scenario. At most they might think it was a bit scrupulous. None of this amounts to an adequate reason for keeping the conditional consecration secret, if it did happen.

Because those New Order priests will just decide that Vigano is too extreme. They will agree with Vigano on his criticism of Bergoglio and the New Mass (maybe). But they will avoid Vigano because he will be seen as going too far by doubting the New Holy Orders.

The SSPX (and the Resistance) takes the same "care" with their official position on New Holy Orders. They talk about "the minister's intention" (subjective) instead of the obvious change to "the form" (objective) of the Sacraments. They don't want to scare people off. They want to be "respectable," "thoughtful" trads, unlike those "Protestant Sedevacantists." They want to use big words and obfuscation to avoid saying directly what was always taught in every Moral Theology manual and by St. Thomas Aquinas: that those with doubtful Holy Orders must be avoided unless they are conditionally ordained in the traditional Rite.