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Author Topic: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione  (Read 16863 times)

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Offline Giovanni Berto

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Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #60 on: December 21, 2023, 03:58:40 PM »
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  • I was hoping someone else would take to the task of translating the video. I could have done it and put it in a big separate post about why the Holy Cross monastery now posing as a seminary is a bad thing for Tradition but that’s not really my motive, even though it should have been done. Bishop Thomas Aquinas performed my wedding. I was very close to him and the Brazilian resistance. I got a lot of criticism and what amounts to excommunication for supporting Bishop Rodrigo da Silva despite the Brazilian resistance, but I have very strong reasons for doing so.

    I would just go on to say that there was definitely a need for a Brazilian bishop, so Bishop Williamson acted in good faith by consecrating and giving Brazil a bishop. There is a lot of story regarding Holy Cross monastery I would rather not get into, but it seems to be undermining the growth of Tradition in Brazil. Luckily, Bishop Williamson did recognize a stand up leader with a true missionary spirit at the Holy Cross monastery. Brother Miguel definitely stood out among the rest. For that reason he was sent to study in Avrille and later ordained by Bishop Williamson as Fr. Rodrigo da Silva. As fate would have it, he would cross paths in a South American airport with Bishop Dolan, who also immediately recognized this charisma and made him a bishop. Since then, Tradition in Brazil has been sustained.

    While we are at it, I considered traveling some distance to know Bp. da Silva and his entourage, but he seems to be the kind that is mean to non-dogmatic Sedevacantits.

    I mean, he seems to be more like Bp. Sanborn-Fr. Cekada than like the CMRI people. Am I right?

    I don't know anybody from these groups, my ideas here are based mostly on what I read on these forums.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #61 on: December 21, 2023, 04:19:07 PM »
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  • God Bless Bp. Dolan RIP, he did so much good! Glad to hear that due to Bp. Rodrigo da Silva, tradition in Brazil has been sustained! Keep up the good fight Centroamerica! Prayers are with you :pray:
    If I'm not mistaken this was the bishop consecrated by Bishop Dolan just before he died, correct?


    Online Yeti

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #62 on: December 21, 2023, 04:22:23 PM »
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  • If I'm not mistaken this was the bishop consecrated by Bishop Dolan just before he died, correct?
    .

    Yes. I didn't know he met Bp. Dolan in an airport in South America. Is that really true?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #63 on: December 21, 2023, 04:27:37 PM »
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  • .

    Yes. I didn't know he met Bp. Dolan in an airport in South America. Is that really true?
    I don't know, but I found this that might shed some light (I haven't listened to it)?

    ETA: Just listened to the beginning and it doesn't sound true.  They first contacted each other via email.

    St. Gertrude the Great » Archive » The Story of Bishop Da Silva (sgg.org)

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #64 on: December 21, 2023, 05:44:55 PM »
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  • Actually, I don't hate it. I hate how SV's believe that they are better than anyone else. They act like the Elite Jews, who want world control. 
    Uh...  I think you're describing yourself here, not the sedevacantists.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #65 on: December 21, 2023, 07:14:38 PM »
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  • The entire 2 minute video is only a defense of the Novus Ordo ordination of Fr. Jahir. This was a response to many faithful feeling uneasy about receiving sacraments from a priest with a Novus Ordo ordination. They are accused publicly of being prideful for doing so by Bishop Thomas Aquinas in the video. He refuses to inform about who the bishop was that ordained the priest and even where he went to the seminary or when he was ordained. He only instead reveals that Fr. Jahir chose a novus ordo bishop with a “traditional spirit”. Nothing more will be told. I was told that Fr. Jahir will not accept conditional ordination and the Brazilian resistance does not require it, in fact, they seem to avoid it as was the case with Fr. Gilberto and others who broke with the resistance and sought to be conditionally ordained by Bishop Rodrigo Da Silva. This is just one of many problems with the Brazilian resistance led by Bishop Thomas Aquinas.
    Here is the video in Portuguese of two minutes length.

    https://youtu.be/PzApOv6C2ZQ?si=DZvFTvWDQAxEc7J9
    Thank you CA.
    I think it is very uncharitable the manner in which Bishop Tomas has been judged in this thread.
    All this drama was stirred up by Fr Da Silva who trained with the Resistance and then "suddenly" after ordination to the priesthood became sedevacantist and put a cat amongst the pigeons with those beliefs that typically attach to sedevacantists, causing unnecessary disturbance among the faithful.
    Archbishop Lefebvre, the SSPX and the Resistance have never held that the new rite of priestly ordination is invalid in itself, but that the circuмstances of the ordination must be judged on a case by case basis, and no one was better qualified than Archbishop Lefebvre to do this, as happened in the case of Fr Jahir.
    Imagine if I studied in one of the sede seminaries, such as the CMRI seminary or Bp Sanborn's seminary, got ordained, and then started spreading theories about the invalidity of Thuc-line bishops.
    What do you think they would do to me? Exactly what I deserved - they would drop kick me out of there as hard and fast as they could and tell me what a scoundrel and trouble maker I am.
    It is not Bishop Tomas who is the villain in this drama.
    Tradition has long been sustained in Brazil and certain newcomers have done nothing but cause trouble and division instead of fortifying the already existing efforts.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #66 on: December 21, 2023, 10:48:27 PM »
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  • Thank you CA.
    I think it is very uncharitable the manner in which Bishop Tomas has been judged in this thread.
    All this drama was stirred up by Fr Da Silva who trained with the Resistance and then "suddenly" after ordination to the priesthood became sedevacantist and put a cat amongst the pigeons with those beliefs that typically attach to sedevacantists, causing unnecessary disturbance among the faithful.
    Archbishop Lefebvre, the SSPX and the Resistance have never held that the new rite of priestly ordination is invalid in itself, but that the circuмstances of the ordination must be judged on a case by case basis, and no one was better qualified than Archbishop Lefebvre to do this, as happened in the case of Fr Jahir.
    Imagine if I studied in one of the sede seminaries, such as the CMRI seminary or Bp Sanborn's seminary, got ordained, and then started spreading theories about the invalidity of Thuc-line bishops.
    What do you think they would do to me? Exactly what I deserved - they would drop kick me out of there as hard and fast as they could and tell me what a scoundrel and trouble maker I am.
    It is not Bishop Tomas who is the villain in this drama.
    Tradition has long been sustained in Brazil and certain newcomers have done nothing but cause trouble and division instead of fortifying the already existing efforts.

    How can any Traditionalist priest or bishop expect blind obedience, when the basis of Traditionalism is questioning the Pope?

    If we question the Pope for the bad things that he does and teach, how can we be expected to simply accept anything that people below the Pope do and teach? It simply makes no sense.

    Any bishop or priest who minister the sacraments to the faithful of Tradition is obliged to show his credentials. I see no way around it. 

    If they are legitimate, they have no reason at all not to give you the dates, rites and names of the bishops who ordained or consecrated them. If they resist on doing this, there is some sinister reason behind it.

    In the case being discussed, it seems that the reason is that the bishop does not want to give in to the demanding faithful because he knows that this pressure is due to something that a Sedevacantist told them. In other words, he doesn't want to give in to "Sedevacantist demands", even if is it for the benefit of the faithful. And this is a sinister reason.

    Holy Orders are public business. Always.

    The only exception are in the context of persecution. Bishop Williamson did some secret consecrations lately, but now they are public. As far as I know, none of these new bishops were ordaining or confirming before their consecrations were made public.

    Offline trento

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #67 on: December 22, 2023, 03:21:02 AM »
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  • Holy Orders are public business. Always.

    The only exception are in the context of persecution. Bishop Williamson did some secret consecrations lately, but now they are public. As far as I know, none of these new bishops were ordaining or confirming before their consecrations were made public.

    I consider both these and the Thuc consecrations to be secret because they were not publicly announced beforehand beyond a few select witnesses. With regards to claims of persecution, it is quite notable that the post-Thuc era SV groups announce their consecrations publicly months in advance.


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #68 on: December 22, 2023, 04:48:28 AM »
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  • How can any Traditionalist priest or bishop expect blind obedience, when the basis of Traditionalism is questioning the Pope?

    If we question the Pope for the bad things that he does and teach, how can we be expected to simply accept anything that people below the Pope do and teach? It simply makes no sense.

    Any bishop or priest who minister the sacraments to the faithful of Tradition is obliged to show his credentials. I see no way around it.

    If they are legitimate, they have no reason at all not to give you the dates, rites and names of the bishops who ordained or consecrated them. If they resist on doing this, there is some sinister reason behind it.

    In the case being discussed, it seems that the reason is that the bishop does not want to give in to the demanding faithful because he knows that this pressure is due to something that a Sedevacantist told them. In other words, he doesn't want to give in to "Sedevacantist demands", even if is it for the benefit of the faithful. And this is a sinister reason.

    Holy Orders are public business. Always.

    The only exception are in the context of persecution. Bishop Williamson did some secret consecrations lately, but now they are public. As far as I know, none of these new bishops were ordaining or confirming before their consecrations were made public.
    Well said. :incense:
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #69 on: December 22, 2023, 06:44:34 AM »
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  • The only exception are in the context of persecution. Bishop Williamson did some secret consecrations lately, but now they are public. As far as I know, none of these new bishops were ordaining or confirming before their consecrations were made public.
    Yes, it took almost 2 years before Bishop Paul Morgan's consecration was made public.  How long will the alleged Vigano consecration be kept hush hush?  Why is there any amount of time lag? 

    And, as I said elsewhere, why would Vigano push his new seminary before that public announcement and say that it is the first and only traditional Catholic seminary in Italy, when it is not?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #70 on: December 22, 2023, 06:54:59 AM »
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  • I consider both these and the Thuc consecrations to be secret because they were not publicly announced beforehand beyond a few select witnesses. With regards to claims of persecution, it is quite notable that the post-Thuc era SV groups announce their consecrations publicly months in advance.
    I don't enough about the specifics of the Thuc consecrations, but if they were in fact done in private, did Archbishop Thuc make them public soon afterwards?

    As for the current (well known) sedevacantist groups, yes, they are always publicly announced in advance.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #71 on: December 22, 2023, 07:04:29 AM »
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  • Actually, I don't hate it. I hate how SV's believe that they are better than anyone else. They act like the Elite Jews, who want world control. Well, go ahead and take over tradition. Good luck to you. Since the Resistance is allowed to die a slow death here, I'm going to give up on it too. You win.

    Of course they think they’re right.  That’s why they hold their position.  And you obviously think you’re right and therefore “better than” the sedevacantists, whom you always disparage as if they were scuм of the earth.

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #72 on: December 22, 2023, 09:11:32 AM »
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  • I would highly recommend visiting the missions of Bishop Rodrigo Da Silva if you have the opportunity. I knew him since he was a Benedictine monk as Bro. Miguel. The story of Bishop Rodrigo meeting Bishop Dolan by chance in an airport in Argentina or somewhere like that is how I remember he told it to me. I got to know him very well over the years. He was at my wedding, presided over by Dom Thomas de Aquinas. He has stayed at my US residence and I stayed for a short while in his seminary in the old location. I would not say he is of the extremost Sedevacantist type though he is an absolutist, he worked closely with Fr. Hector Romero who is sedeprivationist. Fr. Hector Romero assisted him in his seminary when it was still connected with the Franciscans in Brazil. 

    I also got to know Dom Thomas from Holy Cross monastery and stayed many time for a short while in the Holy Cross monastery. I have nothing against them and no reason to hold any grudge whatsoever. There were simply some issues like other people here pointed out. As prior of his monastery, he has no authority outside of his monastery. His flavor of Traditional Catholicism crosses over into cult-like behavior when things like men must never in their lives where blue jeans for example or they are not really Traditionalist. Denim is said to be a modernist material and would make one a modernist wearing it. God forbid you question the ordination of a Novus Ordo priest working with them. And lets point out that the priests of Bahia say the Asperges Mei and Leonine prayers at nearly every Mass to the extent that you leave not knowing if you attended a High Mass or Low Mass. Speaking of formation. And that’s not even mentioning how they ask for donations internationally for things like their school which has maybe 2 lay teachers and a dozen students if that. So the sedevacantists have definitely grown substantially in Brazil at the cost of the resistance, but it’s only the fault of the Holy Cross monastery. But just don’t ask who ordained their priests or you’ll likely be excommunicated. Especially if they see a pic online of you in your work clothes wearing denin.

    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #73 on: December 22, 2023, 09:13:18 AM »
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  • And notice that they refuse to call Bishop Rodrigo da Silva a bishop. They arrogantly refer to him as Father Rodrigo, yet want us to accept their novus ordo “priests”. This is a problem that I would love to see Bishop Williamson set straight. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #74 on: December 22, 2023, 10:07:34 AM »
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  • I would highly recommend visiting the missions of Bishop Rodrigo Da Silva if you have the opportunity. I knew him since he was a Benedictine monk as Bro. Miguel. The story of Bishop Rodrigo meeting Bishop Dolan by chance in an airport in Argentina or somewhere like that is how I remember he told it to me. I got to know him very well over the years. He was at my wedding, presided over by Dom Thomas de Aquinas. He has stayed at my US residence and I stayed for a short while in his seminary in the old location. I would not say he is of the extremost Sedevacantist type though he is an absolutist, he worked closely with Fr. Hector Romero who is sedeprivationist. Fr. Hector Romero assisted him in his seminary when it was still connected with the Franciscans in Brazil.

    I also got to know Dom Thomas from Holy Cross monastery and stayed many time for a short while in the Holy Cross monastery. I have nothing against them and no reason to hold any grudge whatsoever. There were simply some issues like other people here pointed out. As prior of his monastery, he has no authority outside of his monastery. His flavor of Traditional Catholicism crosses over into cult-like behavior when things like men must never in their lives where blue jeans for example or they are not really Traditionalist. Denim is said to be a modernist material and would make one a modernist wearing it. God forbid you question the ordination of a Novus Ordo priest working with them. And lets point out that the priests of Bahia say the Asperges Mei and Leonine prayers at nearly every Mass to the extent that you leave not knowing if you attended a High Mass or Low Mass. Speaking of formation. And that’s not even mentioning how they ask for donations internationally for things like their school which has maybe 2 lay teachers and a dozen students if that. So the sedevacantists have definitely grown substantially in Brazil at the cost of the resistance, but it’s only the fault of the Holy Cross monastery. But just don’t ask who ordained their priests or you’ll likely be excommunicated. Especially if they see a pic online of you in your work clothes wearing denin.

    Thank you very much for this information. You are very kind.

    I also enjoyed the "modernist material". You learn something new everyday. I had never imagined that a fabric could be modernist.