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Author Topic: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione  (Read 16866 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2023, 12:54:53 PM »
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  • There is a text that was posted in the official website of Bp. Thomas Aquinas' monastery about this issue.

    The text has almost exactly the same content of the video that Centroamerica briefed us on.

    Here is a Google Translator version of the text: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&hl=en-US&u=https://www.mosteirodasantacruz.org/post/em-defesa-do-pe-jahir-e-de-seu-sacerd%25C3%25B3cio&client=webapp

    Quote
    :facepalm:

    Very unsettling.  First, he seems to suggest that only sedevacantists might have issues with the New Rites of Priestly Ordination and/or Episcopal Consecration.  Secondly, he calls it "an act of pride" to have such questions, and seems to think that the questions regarding validity are unacceptable if the priest has done "excellent work" and "serve[d] countless souls".  This is such a theological disaster that it makes me question whether he should have been consecrated a bishop in the first place.

    Stream of conscioussness:  sedevacantists, +Lefebvre, excellent work ... as if this even begins to touch the theological problems people might have.  He's doing nothing but emoting here.

    Offline Emile

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #46 on: December 21, 2023, 02:08:12 PM »
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  • Someone should tell the bishop that sacraments, especially Holy Orders, are public business.

    This is Catholicism, not Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ. :fryingpan:
    Good post, GB!

    It's funny how this keeps coming up. Traditional Catholicism is a relatively small group to begin with, but if it weren't for doubts about the new rites I would be surprised if it were even a 1/3 the size that it is. Why do some of the leaders find this so hard to grasp?


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #47 on: December 21, 2023, 02:30:42 PM »
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  • Good post, GB!

    It's funny how this keeps coming up. Traditional Catholicism is a relatively small group to begin with, but if it weren't for doubts about the new rites I would be surprised if it were even a 1/3 the size that it is. Why do some of the leaders find this so hard to grasp?

    I think that they are afraid to take positions that Sedevacantists are known for.

    If they conditionally ordain everybody from the Novus Ordo, they might be accused of "practicing Sedevacantism", as some humorous posters put it.

    It has lot to do with pride. These fellows seem to be very proud to be anti-Sedevacantists, even if they have to harm innumerous souls to show how tough they are.

    Look how they proudly accuse everybody who questions the Novus Ordo ordinations of being Sedevacantists.

    You cannot deny the truth just because you don't like the person who is saying it.

    It is humiliating for the faithful when a bishop, of all people, act like an unbalanced and passionate woman, mixing emotion and faulty logic on a serious matter such as doubtful sacraments.

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #48 on: December 21, 2023, 02:45:08 PM »
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  • I was hoping someone else would take to the task of translating the video. I could have done it and put it in a big separate post about why the Holy Cross monastery now posing as a seminary is a bad thing for Tradition but that’s not really my motive, even though it should have been done. Bishop Thomas Aquinas performed my wedding. I was very close to him and the Brazilian resistance. I got a lot of criticism and what amounts to excommunication for supporting Bishop Rodrigo da Silva despite the Brazilian resistance, but I have very strong reasons for doing so. 

    I would just go on to say that there was definitely a need for a Brazilian bishop, so Bishop Williamson acted in good faith by consecrating and giving Brazil a bishop. There is a lot of story regarding Holy Cross monastery I would rather not get into, but it seems to be undermining the growth of Tradition in Brazil. Luckily, Bishop Williamson did recognize a stand up leader with a true missionary spirit at the Holy Cross monastery. Brother Miguel definitely stood out among the rest. For that reason he was sent to study in Avrille and later ordained by Bishop Williamson as Fr. Rodrigo da Silva. As fate would have it, he would cross paths in a South American airport with Bishop Dolan, who also immediately recognized this charisma and made him a bishop. Since then, Tradition in Brazil has been sustained. 

    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #49 on: December 21, 2023, 03:06:42 PM »
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  • Once the Resistance competition is eliminated, Sedevacantism can then prevail, and thus Tradition will prevail in Brazil. Would that be correct?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Online Persto

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #50 on: December 21, 2023, 03:34:38 PM »
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  • There is a text that was posted in the official website of Bp. Thomas Aquinas' monastery about this issue.

    The text has almost exactly the same content of the video that Centroamerica briefed us on.

    Here is a Google Translator version of the text: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&hl=en-US&u=https://www.mosteirodasantacruz.org/post/em-defesa-do-pe-jahir-e-de-seu-sacerd%25C3%25B3cio&client=webapp

    Quote
    :facepalm:
    Thank you for the translation!
    Persevere...
    Fear not, nor be any way discouraged- Duet.1:21

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #51 on: December 21, 2023, 03:36:30 PM »
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  • Once the Resistance competition is eliminated, Sedevacantism can then prevail, and thus Tradition will prevail in Brazil. Would that be correct?

    Who's eliminating what?  No one has the manpower (outside of perhaps the SSPX) to successfully make such a maneuver.  It sounds more like the Resistance are eliminating themselves because some of the faithful, who might otherwise be inclined toward a Resistance position and yet have (legitimate) concerns about the validity of NO Orders, are gravitating toward the sedevacantists.

    Online Persto

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #52 on: December 21, 2023, 03:38:17 PM »
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  • I think that they are afraid to take positions that Sedevacantists are known for.

    Look how they proudly accuse everybody who questions the Novus Ordo ordinations of being Sedevacantists.

    You cannot deny the truth just because you don't like the person who is saying it.
    Good post!
    Persevere...
    Fear not, nor be any way discouraged- Duet.1:21


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #53 on: December 21, 2023, 03:39:03 PM »
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  • Once the Resistance competition is eliminated, Sedevacantism can then prevail, and thus Tradition will prevail in Brazil. Would that be correct?

    Tradition prevails nowhere. It is always a minority.

    Apparently, Bp. Thomas Aquinas attitude is favoring Sedevacantism, even though that is obviously not his intention.

    In my opinion, it is more imporant that valid sacraments and solid preaching prevail. I won't bother to check the priest's affiliation.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #54 on: December 21, 2023, 03:43:43 PM »
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  • Who's eliminating what?  No one has the manpower (outside of perhaps the SSPX) to successfully make such a maneuver.  It sounds more like the Resistance are eliminating themselves because some of the faithful, who might otherwise be inclined toward a Resistance position and yet have (legitimate) concerns about the validity of NO Orders, are gravitating toward the sedevacantists.

    Right, the Resistance is eliminating itself. Well, that certainly is true for this forum, too. Those who support the Resistance are quite few here. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online Persto

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #55 on: December 21, 2023, 03:44:02 PM »
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  • Who's eliminating what?  No one has the manpower (outside of perhaps the SSPX) to successfully make such a maneuver.  It sounds more like the Resistance are eliminating themselves because some of the faithful, who might otherwise be inclined toward a Resistance position and yet have (legitimate) concerns about the validity of NO Orders, are gravitating toward the sedevacantists.
    Seems like Brazil is ahead of the curve.
    Persevere...
    Fear not, nor be any way discouraged- Duet.1:21


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #56 on: December 21, 2023, 03:47:26 PM »
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  • Once the Resistance competition is eliminated, Sedevacantism can then prevail, and thus Tradition will prevail in Brazil. Would that be correct?

    The entire forum knows that you Meg loathe and absolutely hate sedevacantism with every fiber of your being. It has become your raison d’etre for using this forum. I wonder at times if every cardinal and bishop in the world deckared a sede vacante if you wouldn’t jump off a bridge or just join another religion or whatever. But this, Meg, is not about being right. It’s not about my team wins and your team loses. If that’s what you need in your life watch the NFL or join a sports club. Or better yet, take on womanly activities and set aside your post-3rd wave feminist mindset. But don’t get on here talking trash about sedevacantism to people who you don’t even know what chapel they frequent. It’s nauseous and arrogant. 

    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #57 on: December 21, 2023, 03:49:30 PM »
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  • I think that they are afraid to take positions that Sedevacantists are known for.

    If they conditionally ordain everybody from the Novus Ordo, they might be accused of "practicing Sedevacantism", as some humorous posters put it.

    It has lot to do with pride. These fellows seem to be very proud to be anti-Sedevacantists, even if they have to harm innumerous souls to show how tough they are.

    Look how they proudly accuse everybody who questions the Novus Ordo ordinations of being Sedevacantists.

    You cannot deny the truth just because you don't like the person who is saying it.

    It is humiliating for the faithful when a bishop, of all people, act like an unbalanced and passionate woman, mixing emotion and faulty logic on a serious matter such as doubtful sacraments.
    Well said! :incense: :pray:
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #58 on: December 21, 2023, 03:52:15 PM »
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  • The entire forum knows that you Meg loathe and absolutely hate sedevacantism with every fiber of your being. It has become your raison d’etre for using this forum. I wonder at times if every cardinal and bishop in the world deckared a sede vacante if you wouldn’t jump off a bridge or just join another religion or whatever. But this, Meg, is not about being right. It’s not about my team wins and your team loses. If that’s what you need in your life watch the NFL or join a sports club. Or better yet, take on womanly activities and set aside your post-3rd wave feminist mindset. But don’t get on here talking trash about sedevacantism to people who you don’t even know what chapel they frequent. It’s nauseous and arrogant.

    Actually, I don't hate it. I hate how SV's believe that they are better than anyone else. They act like the Elite Jews, who want world control. Well, go ahead and take over tradition. Good luck to you. Since the Resistance is allowed to die a slow death here, I'm going to give up on it too. You win. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online Persto

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #59 on: December 21, 2023, 03:53:10 PM »
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  • I was hoping someone else would take to the task of translating the video. I could have done it and put it in a big separate post about why the Holy Cross monastery now posing as a seminary is a bad thing for Tradition but that’s not really my motive, even though it should have been done. Bishop Thomas Aquinas performed my wedding. I was very close to him and the Brazilian resistance. I got a lot of criticism and what amounts to excommunication for supporting Bishop Rodrigo da Silva despite the Brazilian resistance, but I have very strong reasons for doing so.

    I would just go on to say that there was definitely a need for a Brazilian bishop, so Bishop Williamson acted in good faith by consecrating and giving Brazil a bishop. There is a lot of story regarding Holy Cross monastery I would rather not get into, but it seems to be undermining the growth of Tradition in Brazil. Luckily, Bishop Williamson did recognize a stand up leader with a true missionary spirit at the Holy Cross monastery. Brother Miguel definitely stood out among the rest. For that reason he was sent to study in Avrille and later ordained by Bishop Williamson as Fr. Rodrigo da Silva. As fate would have it, he would cross paths in a South American airport with Bishop Dolan, who also immediately recognized this charisma and made him a bishop. Since then, Tradition in Brazil has been sustained.
    God Bless Bp. Dolan RIP, he did so much good! Glad to hear that due to Bp. Rodrigo da Silva, tradition in Brazil has been sustained! Keep up the good fight Centroamerica! Prayers are with you :pray:
    Persevere...
    Fear not, nor be any way discouraged- Duet.1:21