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Author Topic: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione  (Read 16848 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #90 on: December 23, 2023, 09:11:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bellator Dei on December 22, 2023, 12:18:44 PM
    This thread brought me out of my slumber....

    I think it's a very interesting situation, but like others, I'm not entirely convinced about the conditional consecration.  It appears he was ordained in 1968, but was it the old rite or the new rite...does anyone know?

    Also, has there been any real confirmation about the conditional consecration yet?

    … early in 1968, before the New Rite was promulgated/published.  And then it was a while before the books were printed. And then there was a reprieve where it didn’t become mandatory until Easter 1970.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #91 on: December 23, 2023, 09:16:40 PM »
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    • Conditional consecration has been confirmed.  Not sure why they’re playing games, with Fr. Chazal trying to be cryptic and no public announcement.

    I’m inclined to reveal the sources if they don’t stop playing games.  This is bordering on childish.
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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #92 on: December 24, 2023, 05:57:50 AM »
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    • A Vigano consecration has huge consequences for Tradition in my opinion. It’s not much different than if a Cardinal came to the SSPX seeking conditional ordination and consecration. Vigano was, afterall, Apostolic Nuncio for the US. No small matter. And this far into the crisis gives another element to it as well. Considering he would consider most of his “brother bishops” dubious at best. It could lead to the conditional consecration for others. Especially with the constant news regarding bishops speaking up against Bergoglio’s constant scandals. The man who claims to be pope (not sure he really claims that title), has proven and gained notoriety of being anti-Catholic, anti-Tradition and a manifest heretic by many outside of Traditional Catholic circles. 

    I would have expected some declarations or statements but it feels as though none are forthcoming. Which then leads me to believe, given the Resistance attitude towards the validity of the Novus Ordo sacraments (new order priests, Valid Novus Ordo Masses and sacraments, defense of New Rite consecrations), I have serious doubts whether or not Vigano has had conditional consecration. 

    I fear the games are being played and are not substantiated by fact. 
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    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #93 on: December 24, 2023, 06:14:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on December 23, 2023, 05:13:54 PM
    Because those New Order priests will just decide that Vigano is too extreme. They will agree with Vigano on his criticism of Bergoglio and the New Mass (maybe). But they will avoid Vigano because he will be seen as going too far by doubting the New Holy Orders.

    I think this is what is going on as well (but I would include his brother Novus Ordo bishops along with the Novus Ordo priests). These priests and other conservative-leaning Novus Ordo men will more likely look into his "only orthodox" seminary (rather than that sedeprivationist, too extreme seminary that's been around in Italy for decades).

    Having said that, I can see why others are questioning whether it ever happened given all we have are other posters saying it has been confirmed.  Even if names of sources are given, it's not the sources themselves.

    Meanwhile those "in the know" are playing coy with the conditional consecration.  Games indeed. 

    When they do decide it's "safe" to reveal it to the world, I sure hope they have evidence that it happened given how important this particular conditional consecration is supposed to be and how some very well-known, past Traditional consecrations are viewed.
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #94 on: December 24, 2023, 03:49:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 23, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
    Conditional consecration has been confirmed.  Not sure why they’re playing games, with Fr. Chazal trying to be cryptic and no public announcement.

    I’m inclined to reveal the sources if they don’t stop playing games.  This is bordering on childish.
    I'm sorry.  This is a gratuitous statement.  The only confirmation I've seen anywhere is from posters on CathInfo.  That's hardly "confirmation".  
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #95 on: January 05, 2024, 09:36:44 AM »
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    • Abp. Vigano HAS been conditionally consecrated by a valid, Traditional bishop.

    The veracity of that story has been confirmed by me personally and you're going to have to accept it, or at least "agree to disagree".

    Let's put it this way: you can believe whatever you want, but you're not allowed to post heresy OR error on CathInfo. And according to me, the moderator, "Abp. Vigano being conditionally consecrated" is an undisputed fact, no longer open for debate.

    You can be upset at "whoever" for not publishing a proper press release, fine -- but you can't post anything contrary to the fact (as stated above) without accusing ME of lying (attacking moderator = bannable offense) or violating CathInfo rules (also a bannable offense).
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    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #96 on: January 05, 2024, 09:39:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on January 05, 2024, 09:36:44 AM
    Abp. Vigano HAS been conditionally consecrated by a valid, Traditional bishop.

    The veracity of that story has been confirmed by me personally and you're going to have to accept it, or at least "agree to disagree".

    Let's put it this way: you can believe whatever you want, but you're not allowed to post heresy OR error on CathInfo. And according to me, the moderator, "Abp. Vigano being conditionally consecrated" is an undisputed fact, no longer open for debate.

    You can be upset at "whoever" for not publishing a proper press release, fine -- but you can't post anything contrary to the fact (as stated above) without accusing ME of lying (attacking moderator = bannable offense) or violating CathInfo rules (also a bannable offense).
    Given most people will not see this, perhaps a pinned "CathInfo Rules" would make it clear to all.
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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #97 on: January 05, 2024, 09:47:12 AM »
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    • It's incredibly easy to verify. I haven't because I trust Ladislaus word on it. Matthew is throwing his weight behind it now too. It would be practical for Bishop Williamson to speak on it in Kyrie Eleison eventually. Be nice to hear from +Vigano about it.
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    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #98 on: January 05, 2024, 10:12:23 AM »
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    • There might not be an official annoucement, because it could make some damage to the idea that "not all Novus Ordo consecrations and ordinations are doubtful".

    We have discussed recently how Bp. Thomas Aquinas fiercely defends a particular Novus Ordo ordination. If Bp. Williamson makes Vigano's conditional consecration public, it will be even harder for Bp. Thomas Aquinas to sustain his defence.

    Let's wait and see. :popcorn:
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    Offline gemmarose

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #99 on: January 05, 2024, 10:21:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on January 05, 2024, 10:12:23 AM
    There might not be an official annoucement, because it could make some damage to the idea that "not all Novus Ordo consecrations and ordinations are doubtful".

    We have discussed recently how Bp. Thomas Aquinas fiercely defends a particular Novus Ordo ordination. If Bp. Williamson makes Vigano's conditional consecration public, it will be even harder for Bp. Thomas Aquinas to sustain his defence.

    Let's wait and see. :popcorn:
    Well then if Vigano is afraid to make a statement to everyone, then I believe that would be called sin of omission.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #100 on: January 05, 2024, 10:38:08 AM »
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    • I must say I find the conditional consecration of +Vigano to be quite humorous, since +Vigano was "consecrated" by none other than "St. John Paul II Wojtyla the Great" ... a shot to the gut of Trad, Inc.  It calls into question not only the new rite of episcopal consecration, but also casts aspersions on the great saint of conservative Novus Ordites.

    :laugh1:
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    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #101 on: January 05, 2024, 10:39:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: gemmarose on January 05, 2024, 10:21:25 AM
    Well then if Vigano is afraid to make a statement to everyone, then I believe that would be called sin of omission.

    There have been reports here showing that the SSPX has always considered conditional ordinations almost secrets. As far as I know, there has never been an official annoucement of any conditional ordination. The Resistance clergy simply follows this custom.

    Vigano has never said that he considers his Novus Ordo consecration to be doubtful. This being the case, I don't see how he is obliged to come public with his conditional consecration.
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    Offline gemmarose

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #102 on: January 05, 2024, 10:43:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on January 05, 2024, 10:39:48 AM
    There have been reports here showing that the SSPX has always considered conditional ordinations almost secrets. As far as I know, there has never been an official annoucement of any conditional ordination. The Resistance clergy simply follows this custom.

    Vigano has never said that he considers his Novus Ordo consecration to be doubtful. This being the case, I don't see how he is obliged to come public with his conditional consecration.
    Do you remember what Bishop Tissier said in 2013 about the new "ordinations"




    https://fsspx.uk/en/news-events/news/ordination-sermon-bishop-tissier-de-mallerais-16842
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    Offline gemmarose

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #103 on: January 05, 2024, 10:46:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: gemmarose on January 05, 2024, 10:43:05 AM
    Do you remember what Bishop Tissier said in 2013 about the new "ordinations"




    https://fsspx.uk/en/news-events/news/ordination-sermon-bishop-tissier-de-mallerais-16842
    correction it was 2016
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    Offline gemmarose

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #104 on: January 05, 2024, 10:48:51 AM »
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