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Author Topic: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione  (Read 20920 times)

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Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2023, 11:07:35 PM »
Bishop Thomas Aquinas refuses to reveal who the ordaining bishop was, where or when he was ordained. All the faithful know is he has a Novus Ordo ordination. That is it. You are not allowed to question it any further as far as I know. The video from their official youtube channel confirms this.
Could you post this video you are referring to please CA and alert us to the relevant time mark?

Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2023, 10:43:17 AM »
Could you post this video you are referring to please CA and alert us to the relevant time mark?

The entire 2 minute video is only a defense of the Novus Ordo ordination of Fr. Jahir. This was a response to many faithful feeling uneasy about receiving sacraments from a priest with a Novus Ordo ordination. They are accused publicly of being prideful for doing so by Bishop Thomas Aquinas in the video. He refuses to inform about who the bishop was that ordained the priest and even where he went to the seminary or when he was ordained. He only instead reveals that Fr. Jahir chose a novus ordo bishop with a “traditional spirit”. Nothing more will be told. I was told that Fr. Jahir will not accept conditional ordination and the Brazilian resistance does not require it, in fact, they seem to avoid it as was the case with Fr. Gilberto and others who broke with the resistance and sought to be conditionally ordained by Bishop Rodrigo Da Silva. This is just one of many problems with the Brazilian resistance led by Bishop Thomas Aquinas. 
Here is the video in Portuguese of two minutes length. 

https://youtu.be/PzApOv6C2ZQ?si=DZvFTvWDQAxEc7J9



Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2023, 10:46:26 AM »
The entire 2 minute video is only a defense of the Novus Ordo ordination of Fr. Jahir. This was a response to many faithful feeling uneasy about receiving sacraments from a priest with a Novus Ordo ordination. They are accused publicly of being prideful for doing so by Bishop Thomas Aquinas in the video. He refuses to inform about who the bishop was that ordained the priest and even where he went to the seminary or when he was ordained. He only instead reveals that Fr. Jahir chose a novus ordo bishop with a “traditional spirit”. Nothing more will be told. I was told that Fr. Jahir will not accept conditional ordination and the Brazilian resistance does not require it, in fact, they seem to avoid it as was the case with Fr. Gilberto and others who broke with the resistance and sought to be conditionally ordained by Bishop Rodrigo Da Silva. This is just one of many problems with the Brazilian resistance led by Bishop Thomas Aquinas.
Here is the video in Portuguese of two minutes length.

https://youtu.be/PzApOv6C2ZQ?si=DZvFTvWDQAxEc7J9


If that is true, Bishop Thomas Aquinas needs to be rejected. Again, “The Nine” have been vindicated.

Offline Angelus

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Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2023, 11:02:18 AM »
Oh yes, 100%.

You can read Archbishop Lefebvre's treatment of the new rite of ordination in Open Letter to confused Catholics:
http://sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/OpenLetterToConfusedCatholics/Chapter-7.htm

This is Fr Calderon's conclusion to his study (I hope to post the entire study soon):

Now, in a matter of the utmost importance for the life of the Church, such as the validity of the episcopate, it is necessary to have absolute certainty. Therefore, in order to be able to accept this rite with peace of conscience, it would be necessary to count not only on the judgement of theologians, but also on the infallible judgement of the Magisterium.

As for the practical attitude to be taken with regard to the new episcopal consecrations, the one that the Fraternity has maintained up to now seems to us to be justified:

1. The very probable validity of the rite seems to us to make it morally acceptable to occasionally attend Mass (traditional rite) celebrated by a priest or a bishop ordained or consecrated in the new rite, and even to receive communion therein; it seems to us acceptable, in case of necessity, to receive absolution from them; to treat them as priests and bishops and not as laymen in costume; it seems to us acceptable to allow them to celebrate in our own homes. For the shadows that hover over the validity of their priesthood are but shadows and in all these activities our responsibility is not engaged concerning the priesthood exercised. And the remote risk that a communion or an absolution may be invalid is not so serious.

2. But the positive and objective defects from which this rite suffers, which prevent us from being certain of its validity, it seems to us -until there is a Roman judgement, for which many things would have to change– justify and make necessary the conditional reordination of priests ordained by new bishops and, if necessary, the conditional reconsecration of these bishops. Such doubts cannot be tolerated at the very root of the sacraments (33).

Footnote 33 says "The moralists speak much about the necessity for certainty in the validity of the sacraments".

And here is Bishop Williamson on the same:
https://stmarcelinitiative.org/bishops-valid-ii/
https://stmarcelinitiative.org/bishops-valid-iii/

All of the above reduces to the following:

Major: The Church has always required that Holy Orders be certainly valid.

Minor: The sacramental "forms" used in the New Rites of Holy Orders are not certainly valid.

Conclusion: Therefore, it is necessary to conditionally ordain New Rite "priests" in the traditional Rite and to conditionally consecrate New Rite "bishops" in the traditional Rite to ensure that their Holy Orders are certainly valid.

Offline Emile

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Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2023, 11:13:35 AM »
The entire 2 minute video is only a defense of the Novus Ordo ordination of Fr. Jahir. This was a response to many faithful feeling uneasy about receiving sacraments from a priest with a Novus Ordo ordination. They are accused publicly of being prideful for doing so by Bishop Thomas Aquinas in the video. He refuses to inform about who the bishop was that ordained the priest and even where he went to the seminary or when he was ordained. He only instead reveals that Fr. Jahir chose a novus ordo bishop with a “traditional spirit”. Nothing more will be told. I was told that Fr. Jahir will not accept conditional ordination and the Brazilian resistance does not require it, in fact, they seem to avoid it as was the case with Fr. Gilberto and others who broke with the resistance and sought to be conditionally ordained by Bishop Rodrigo Da Silva. This is just one of many problems with the Brazilian resistance led by Bishop Thomas Aquinas.
Here is the video in Portuguese of two minutes length.

https://youtu.be/PzApOv6C2ZQ?si=DZvFTvWDQAxEc7J9
Thanks for posting this, C.
It seems that the Bishop's defense conflates doubts about the validity of Fr. Jahir's ordination as being an attack upon his person. Surely the good Bishop is capable of making the distinction.