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Author Topic: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione  (Read 16845 times)

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Offline Centroamerica

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Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« on: December 17, 2023, 05:58:48 PM »
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  • For the time being, this should be treated as a rumor. It would be very easy to confirm if it were true. 

    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #1 on: December 17, 2023, 06:03:06 PM »
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  • For the time being, this should be treated as a rumor. It would be very easy to confirm if it were true.

    It is true and has been confirmed ... though not publicly announced.


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #2 on: December 17, 2023, 06:11:34 PM »
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  • It is true and has been confirmed ... though not publicly announced.
    Wow!
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #3 on: December 17, 2023, 08:20:05 PM »
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  • Wow!
    You may have missed this thread where it is being discussed, it contains the video link being referred to: https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/fr-chazal-conference-in-the-uk-november-2023/

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #4 on: December 17, 2023, 08:25:12 PM »
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  • I just spent a little time to go through and read the threads on Vigano. Very interesting. I was hoping for something like this. His rejection of the papacy of Francis and his doubtful Wojtylan consecration while working with Bishop Williamson really give a great element to his consecration sub conditione. I see this as great news for Tradition. I can’t wait to see the news as it unfolds. He’s basically Sedevacantist declared openly. Where will this lead? To a new Sedevacantist seminary with a Williamson lineage?
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #5 on: December 18, 2023, 06:49:57 AM »
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  • I just spent a little time to go through and read the threads on Vigano. Very interesting. I was hoping for something like this. His rejection of the papacy of Francis and his doubtful Wojtylan consecration while working with Bishop Williamson really give a great element to his consecration sub conditione. I see this as great news for Tradition. I can’t wait to see the news as it unfolds. He’s basically Sedevacantist declared openly. Where will this lead? To a new Sedevacantist seminary with a Williamson lineage?

    Archbishop Vigano is not a Sedevacantist.  He admitted that himself.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #6 on: December 18, 2023, 07:04:38 AM »
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  • Archbishop Vigano is not a Sedevacantist.  He admitted that himself.

    It's just semantics ... like when the Bennyvacantists say they're not sedevacantists.  It's technically true because +Vigano is clearly more of a privationist/impoundist than straight sedevacantist, and it also depends upon the semantics of whether the term requires someone to hold that all the pre-V2 papal claimants were illegitimate.  At the end of the day, +Vigano holds that Bergoglio occupies the See but does not exercise papal authority, that we can be morally certain he's not the pope but cannot officially declare it.  All things point to a variant on privationism/impoundism.

    Similarly, people still try to classify Father Chazal as R&R, but he's really not.  Classic R&R holds that (in this present case) Bergoglio does have papal authority and that we're required to obey him unless in a specific case obeying him violates our conscience.  Father Chazal does not hold this, but that Bergoglio categorically lacks all authority and is to be "ignored" and is impounded, where the only thing lacking is a formal removal from office by the rightful authorities.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #7 on: December 18, 2023, 07:51:40 AM »
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  • Similarly, people still try to classify Father Chazal as R&R, but he's really not.  Classic R&R holds that (in this present case) Bergoglio does have papal authority and that we're required to obey him unless in a specific case obeying him violates our conscience.  Father Chazal does not hold this, but that Bergoglio categorically lacks all authority and is to be "ignored" and is impounded, where the only thing lacking is a formal removal from office by the rightful authorities.

    My understanding of Fr. Chazal's position is that he accepts Jorge Bergoglio as a valid pope with all the papal powers.  However, the exercise of those powers is illicit.  His validity as pope will cease only once he is removed by the competent Church authorities. 


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #8 on: December 18, 2023, 08:23:32 AM »
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  • My understanding of Fr. Chazal's position is that he accepts Jorge Bergoglio as a valid pope with all the papal powers.  However, the exercise of those powers is illicit.  His validity as pope will cease only once he is removed by the competent Church authorities.

    See Fr. Chazal's explanation of his position to Dr. Chojnowski at the following link:

    https://radtradthomist.chojnowski.me/2018/03/resistance-is-best-name-fr-chazal.html

    "This is because the jurisdiction of a heretic; while it instantly disappears quoad liceitatem; only disappears quoad validitatem after a sentence.  Before then, there is a valid but illicit jurisdiction, of which none of those who are aware of the heresy of the holder of office, can make use of."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #9 on: December 18, 2023, 10:02:32 AM »
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  • Just more word-slicing in an attempt to differentiate himself from the sedeprivationists, but the notion of an illicit jurisdiction which no one may make use of ... UNLESS they're unaware of his heresies ... is a rather strange bird that resulted from his game of Twister in an attempt to distinguish his position from sedeprivationism.  So the jurisdiction is licit quoad nos if we don't think he's a manfest heretic?  Since when has jurisdiction been a function of whether what we believe or think to be the case.

    Father also ends up mis-applying the distinction between validity and liceity, as if we're speaking of the Sacraments here.  There's no such distinction where it comes to authority or jurisdiction.

    Nevertheless, the core of his thesis is that Bergoglio categorically has no authority due to his manifest heresy and is to be completely ignored.  As I said, this is different from classic R&R, which holds that he does have authority but we may disobey it when we believe that it contradicts our faith.  In summary, the difference is between a categorical loss of authority vs. a case-by-case disobedience to his authority.

    This answer to Dr. Chojnowski looks like a very desperate attempt to distinguish himself from the "sede", and it results in some strange gymnastics.  He retorts again by playing a strawman about the "5 Opinions" where he falsely attributes a dogmatic adherence to the Bellarmine opinion to sedeprivationists.  Like Father Chazal himself, the sedeprivationists hold a position that's somewhat of a hybrid between the Bellarmine vs. the Cajetan/John of St. Thomas positions.  He does NOT hold the Cajetan position.  I personally hold that the principles of sedeprivationism are already quite clearly there in Bellarmine, but that's a separate issue.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #10 on: December 18, 2023, 10:18:07 AM »
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  • I just wish that Father Chazal, the Resistance, and the sedeprivationists would sit down and talk instead of remaining entrenched in these artificial dividing lines.  They'd realize that they hold more in common than they disagree, and that their disagreement amounts to little more than a few details or nuances that should not be show-stoppers from realizing that they're basically "on the same team," as it were.


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #11 on: December 18, 2023, 10:59:33 AM »
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  • I just wish that Father Chazal, the Resistance, and the sedeprivationists would sit down and talk instead of remaining entrenched in these artificial dividing lines.  They'd realize that they hold more in common than they disagree, and that their disagreement amounts to little more than a few details or nuances that should not be show-stoppers from realizing that they're basically "on the same team," as it were.

    I agree. Way too many divisions among Traditional Catholics. To some extent, I believe the petty bickering and arrogant divisions prolong the crisis in the Church. Wanting to be right and having a sort of messianic group that is going to save the Church has really done nothing good at all for the Faith. All the valid Latin Rite Catholic bishops of Tradition should be holding annual meetings to resolve differences if they really sincerely cared about the state of the Church. Maybe all wouldn’t attend at first but eventually most would. Somewhere schism is defined as a refusal of communion with other Catholics, and so Traditional Catholicism risks becoming a hundred little sects with frequent schisms within which lead to more sects. 

    Despite this, the Vigano news is good news. Maybe the resistance groups will become more willing to work with the non-dogmatic Sedevacantist groups in the future. There’s so many groups of Traditional Catholics at this time, it’s hard to keep up with them all. New bishops for new groups are being consecrated every year. Hopefully, unity between the groups will become more of a focus in years to come. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #12 on: December 18, 2023, 02:10:42 PM »
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  • Hopefully, unity between the groups will become more of a focus in years to come.

    Instead of 'the Great Apostasy begins at the top' we need 'the great Restoration begins at the top'.  Once we have a pope instead of an apostate, I think we'll be moving in that direction.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #13 on: December 18, 2023, 02:17:02 PM »
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  • I just wish that Father Chazal, the Resistance, and the sedeprivationists would sit down and talk instead of remaining entrenched in these artificial dividing lines.  They'd realize that they hold more in common than they disagree, and that their disagreement amounts to little more than a few details or nuances that should not be show-stoppers from realizing that they're basically "on the same team," as it were.

    Fr. Chazal is fine if one holds the private opinion that Jorge Bergoglio is not pope. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
    « Reply #14 on: December 18, 2023, 05:26:21 PM »
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  • Fr. Chazal is fine if one holds the private opinion that Jorge Bergoglio is not pope.

    What does a "private opinion" mean vs. a "public opinion"?  That distinction is meaningless.  Obviously everyone understands that we can't authoritatively depose a pope.  Does it mean you're allowed to think it but not say it?  This makes no sense.