Author Topic: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy  (Read 1084 times)

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Offline StLouisIX

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Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
« on: July 24, 2020, 05:22:20 PM »
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  • A video review about the book of the same title along with some commentary. I found it informative to an extent. The video mainly is about Archbishop Thuc's life, but also Sedevacantism in general. In fact, the person who made this is none other than Serp Kerp, who had an account on this site and made some posts years ago, from what I can tell. He once was sede, but now supports the Conciliar Church, and so keep in mind that he is talking from a seemingly conservative Novus Ordo perspective. He even claims, (though this is to be expected) that Sedevacantism is "different religion" than Roman Catholicism. Since he was previously a sedevacantist, his knowledge about the different variations comes into this discussion, so he is more educated than most NOers who touch this subject. Be warned: if you browse around his channel, you'll see that he has placed images of immodestly dressed anime girls in the thumbnails of quite a few of his videos. That alone says to me that he seems to have "gone off the edge". Although I am not a sede, it saddens me that someone who was "red-pilled" on the Conciliar Church and Vatican II could wind up drinking their Kool Aid, and so I ask you all to pray for him (I will do so myself). 

    I'm curious to how Sedevacantists on this forum would respond to two of his claims/opinions that stuck out to me: 

    He also makes the claim towards the end that Sedevacantism is something that is "harmful" to the Church since their arguments are utilized by members of false religions to try to "disprove" the Papacy. How do sedevacantists respond to this? 

    Another claim he makes in his conclusion is that Sedevacantism will grow in numbers, and prove to be a serious challenge to the Novus Ordo Church, due to the overall superior Internet savvy of their movement, higher birth numbers, and the lack of the Newchurch providing serious apologetics against sede arguments. (Note: he talks about how this growth will continue "to the end of the century" presupposing that the Chastisement will not have happened)
    What do sedes make of this? 

    Also, if anyone here has a better source about Archbishop Thuc, it would be appreciated.

    Offline SerpKerp

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    Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
    « Reply #1 on: August 01, 2020, 12:10:05 AM »
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  • There are few sources for Thuc. I want to learn more. It sucks. 

    I am a former Sedevacantist who accepts Vatican II

    I guess posting Corona Chan on thumbnails is beyond the pale?


    Offline SerpKerp

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    Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
    « Reply #2 on: August 01, 2020, 12:13:37 AM »
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  • I did a long interview with the Youtuber Classical Theist on my experience as a Sedevacantist and my current views.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
    « Reply #3 on: August 01, 2020, 08:15:53 AM »
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  • There are few sources for Thuc. I want to learn more. It sucks.

    I am a former Sedevacantist who accepts Vatican II

    I guess posting Corona Chan on thumbnails is beyond the pale?

    I would read his autobiography, which is out there on the internet.  It gives you a much different picture of +Thuc than you'll get from his detractors.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
    « Reply #4 on: August 02, 2020, 07:51:44 AM »
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  • I did a long interview with the Youtuber Classical Theist on my experience as a Sedevacantist and my current views.  

    I watched the first 45 minutes of the video. It provides a good analysis of the problems with sedevacantism in its various forms.
    "This forum is a space for discussion to defend the Catholic Faith following Monsignor Marcel Lefebvre. It is therefore not for rallying to the conciliar church nor for sedevacantism"
    - From the French Resistance forum (Francophone forum, in France)


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
    « Reply #5 on: August 02, 2020, 09:26:21 AM »
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  • I'm curious to how Sedevacantists on this forum would respond to two of his claims/opinions that stuck out to me:

    He also makes the claim towards the end that Sedevacantism is something that is "harmful" to the Church since their arguments are utilized by members of false religions to try to "disprove" the Papacy. How do sedevacantists respond to this?

    Another claim he makes in his conclusion is that Sedevacantism will grow in numbers, and prove to be a serious challenge to the Novus Ordo Church, due to the overall superior Internet savvy of their movement, higher birth numbers, and the lack of the Newchurch providing serious apologetics against sede arguments. (Note: he talks about how this growth will continue "to the end of the century" presupposing that the Chastisement will not have happened)
    What do sedes make of this?

    Also, if anyone here has a better source about Archbishop Thuc, it would be appreciated.
    .
    The arguments for sedevacantism are mostly taken from Bellarmine and his theology on the papacy. That is a manifestly contra-protestant theological tradition. So, as regards the first claim, I don't know what to say except that he's just wrong. 
    .
    As to the second claim, I think he's probably right about more and more people doubting or outrighr denying (at least Francis's) claims. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
    « Reply #6 on: August 02, 2020, 10:28:01 AM »
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  • The arguments for sedevacantism are mostly taken from Bellarmine and his theology on the papacy. That is a manifestly contra-protestant theological tradition.

    Yes, true, but I think what he was getting at was not oppositional to St. Bellarmine or his theology, but the notion that laymen on their own accord would  use it subjectively/privately to declare the Holy See vacant.

    Also often forgotten is that St. Bellarmine didn’t actually believe the situation of an heretical pope could ever arise, and his writing on the subject is therefore largely hypothetical (ie., Much like St. Thomas More’s “Utopia,” Bellarmine is discussing things he didn’t believe could happen, and giving his abstract thoughts for the sake of argument).

    But would St. Bellarmine maintain his opinions in the real world when confronted with the conciliar papacies?

    I wonder.

    It also gets overlooked that St. Bellarmine’s opinion is one among several, and that the Church has not made it Her own.  This aggravates the rashness and boldness of those who would unilaterally declare the see empty.

    And let’s not forget there is still an unsettled debate about what St. Bellarmine’s position really is (ie., Some say he still agreed with Cajetan/Jst/Suarez that the Church had to be involved in the process, at least so far as declaring the fact of the heresy, but opposed the aforementioned writers only insofar as they believed a second judgment of the Church was necessary that Christ had deposed their pope).

    But the common sede rendition has it that at any time a layman thinks a pope has committed heresy, the see becomes empty.

    It is difficult to believe Bellarmine would invent a doctrine so ruinous to Church unity (particularly over the course of three generations and seven papacies, and counting), and it is in this sense that the allegation of Protestantism is made (not against Bellarmine, but against those who wield and misapply him).
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline StLouisIX

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    Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
    « Reply #7 on: August 02, 2020, 11:09:41 AM »
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  • I did a long interview with the Youtuber Classical Theist on my experience as a Sedevacantist and my current views.  
    I watched the video as well. Helps me to understand where you're coming from on all of this, thank you for posting. I also found it helpful in clearing up a lot of things about where the various sede groups came from and their positions are, even though I disagree with the conclusions made on Vatican II by yourself and the others in later into the interview. Don't take my OP as me saying that I would like for you to become a Sedevacantist again. 


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
    « Reply #8 on: August 02, 2020, 12:22:05 PM »
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  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odz1fgTk0JA


    I did a long interview with the Youtuber Classical Theist on my experience as a Sedevacantist and my current views.  
    I only listened to a few minutes, at 3:35 you commented: "...until then, you had kind of this theory of papal positivism, where God would directly prevent anything remotely coming from there, basically the Holy Ghost would protect at all times even material [heresy] from happening....." - Fr. Fenton taught pretty much this same theory as though it is a dogma or teaching of the Church.

    In your initial post, you said: "I am a former Sedevacantist who accepts Vatican II."

    I wonder how much of a roll, if any, this theory in particular played in your decision to leave tradition to accept V2. 




    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse

    Offline StLouisIX

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    Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
    « Reply #9 on: August 02, 2020, 09:41:40 PM »
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  • There are few sources for Thuc. I want to learn more. It sucks.

    I would read his autobiography, which is out there on the internet.  It gives you a much different picture of +Thuc than you'll get from his detractors.
    I remember that Lad posted the link to +Thuc’s autobiography in some other thread about him. I tried searching for it again on CI, but I couldn’t find it. But, after some searching on the Internet, I found it here: http://www.einsicht-aktuell.de/index.php?svar=2&ausgabe_id=180&artikel_id=1920


    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
    « Reply #10 on: August 03, 2020, 12:47:14 AM »
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  • As to Archbishop Thuc there are a few statements of his that are out there that are very BAD. These are documented and I will give the source so all of you will be able to find them. Let the Archbishop speak for himself.

     1. “ ‘Concerning the attraction of non-Christians to the Church.’ With great consolation I see present in these assem-
    blies the delegates of the non-Christian Churches, to be witnesses of our fraternity, sincerity and liberty. But where are

    the delegates or observers of the non-Christians? ...The scandal coming to the whole world from the absence of any
    invitations sent to the chiefs of the non-Christian religions I expounded in the central commission—but in vain. I
    earnestly begged the council to make good the omission, so that this most loathsome discrimination between some
    religions may no longer be found. This absence of an invitation to the heads of the Christian religions confirms in a
    certain manner that prejudice creeping through the Asiatic and African world: ‘The Catholic Church is a church for
    men of white colour and not for coloured men.’” (Acta Synodalia Vaticani II, vol. 2, part 1, pp. 358-359)
    2. “...it seems to me an extraordinary thing that in the schema concerning the people of God, express mention
    is nowhere made of women, so that the Church appears totally masculine, whereas the reality is quite different. Do
    not women constitute the greater part of the laity—even of ecclesiastical prescriptions? Of course I well know the
    Church had to behave like this in order not to offend the prejudices of those ages. Thus, St. Paul imposed the veil
    on women in Church, lest they displease the angels. So why must men proudly enter the church bareheaded which
    is contrary to the custom of clerics today both in the West and the East? In the same way, silence was imposed on
    women whereas in this Basilica the walls recently resounded to the voices of the Fathers. So too, nuns must obtain
    the permission of churches to wash the sacred linens. And likewise this unjust discrimination appears here and now

    in this conciliar hall... Why is it that in our atomic age, when almost everywhere in the world women have ob-
    tained juridical equality with men, it is only in the Church of Christ that they still suffer these injurious discrimi-
    nations... I eagerly seek... these discriminations against the most valiant sex be eradicated. Last, of all I shall be

    grateful to him who can present me with a plain apodictic text of the Gospel which excludes the sisters of the
    Blessed Virgin Mary from the sacred functions [i.e. the priesthood].” (Acta Synodalia Vaticani II, vol. 2, part 3, pp.513


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
    « Reply #11 on: August 03, 2020, 09:32:29 AM »
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  • Yes, true, but I think what he was getting at was not oppositional to St. Bellarmine or his theology, but the notion that laymen on their own accord would  use it subjectively/privately to declare the Holy See vacant.

    Also often forgotten is that St. Bellarmine didn’t actually believe the situation of an heretical pope could ever arise, and his writing on the subject is therefore largely hypothetical (ie., Much like St. Thomas More’s “Utopia,” Bellarmine is discussing things he didn’t believe could happen, and giving his abstract thoughts for the sake of argument).
    .
    Well, that is a problem (in his view, anyways) that applies to traditionalist methods as such, not to sedevacantist 'arguments.' 
    .
    All traditionalists use private judgment to 'declare' that the conciliar magisterium is at odds with the Catholic magisterium, that the New Mass is fraudulent, and so forth.  Sedevacantists use this method no more or less than any other traditionalist uses it. 
    .
    Serp Kerp can actually make this argument, if he accepts Vatican II (by the hermeneutic of continuity, I assume).  But I do not see how any traditionalist could make that argument for very long before it collapses inward.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
    « Reply #12 on: August 03, 2020, 09:39:18 AM »
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  • Thuc is a complicated character, but there are two extremes that ought to be avoided.  On the one hand, people like Bishop Kelly (and his supporters) are utterly unforgiving and unreasonable in their assessment, acknowledging only the scummier of the Thuc consecrations, and only ever interpreting them as either a function of Thuc's insanity or unorthodoxy (when I would maintain the best interpretation is simply that he was conned).  On the other hand, some sedevacantists want to make him out to be the sedevacantist ABL, and this view also has to be very selective in its reading of history, because Thuc was not much of a leader and he made some mistakes that have to be acknowledged.
    .
    Thuc is a pitiable figure who I think did his best.  That includes providing three very good and capable bishops (Carmona, Guerard des Lauriers, and Zamora) who were strong leaders and who helped grow the traditionalist priesthood.  That also includes a lamentable level of credulity, especially early on, with the Palmarian consecrations; as well as a potential for being bullied and manipulated by those with power (e.g. his vacillations with the Vatican).  It is easy to understand why he is such a polarizing figure, given the highs and lows of his ministry, but a charitable approach will generate a more balanced view of the man and his life.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
    « Reply #13 on: August 03, 2020, 10:48:36 AM »
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  • Very well stated Mit!

    The Archbishop of South Vietnam was a most complex character.

    But how many Catholics would have been able to persevere the times as he did?







    His brother, President Diem was assassinated and his country was subsequently blown apart by the Vietnam War.






    He was excommunicated by one of the sleaziest, revolutionary jew popes, the world has ever known.


    And he was conned, abused and misused in America, as you said.


    But he was an Archbishop in a time of severe Canonical crisis

    And he conferred the Sacraments, without having the protection or backing of the likes of the Pallavacini "Black Nobility" or Mr. Lovey.















    He made mistakes, but we should be thankful for his fortitude and perseverance to Catholic tradition.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
    « Reply #14 on: August 04, 2020, 02:19:36 AM »
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  • He was made an Archbishop by John XXIII who started Vatican Council II and was pretty close to Paul VI. Paul VI continued what John XXIII started.


     

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