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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: StLouisIX on July 24, 2020, 05:22:20 PM

Title: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: StLouisIX on July 24, 2020, 05:22:20 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8tuA0nEa7c

A video review about the book of the same title along with some commentary. I found it informative to an extent. The video mainly is about Archbishop Thuc's life, but also Sedevacantism in general. In fact, the person who made this is none other than Serp Kerp, who had an account on this site and made some posts years ago, from what I can tell. He once was sede, but now supports the Conciliar Church, and so keep in mind that he is talking from a seemingly conservative Novus Ordo perspective. He even claims, (though this is to be expected) that Sedevacantism is "different religion" than Roman Catholicism. Since he was previously a sedevacantist, his knowledge about the different variations comes into this discussion, so he is more educated than most NOers who touch this subject. Be warned: if you browse around his channel, you'll see that he has placed images of immodestly dressed anime girls in the thumbnails of quite a few of his videos. That alone says to me that he seems to have "gone off the edge". Although I am not a sede, it saddens me that someone who was "red-pilled" on the Conciliar Church and Vatican II could wind up drinking their Kool Aid, and so I ask you all to pray for him (I will do so myself). 

I'm curious to how Sedevacantists on this forum would respond to two of his claims/opinions that stuck out to me: 

He also makes the claim towards the end that Sedevacantism is something that is "harmful" to the Church since their arguments are utilized by members of false religions to try to "disprove" the Papacy. How do sedevacantists respond to this? 

Another claim he makes in his conclusion is that Sedevacantism will grow in numbers, and prove to be a serious challenge to the Novus Ordo Church, due to the overall superior Internet savvy of their movement, higher birth numbers, and the lack of the Newchurch providing serious apologetics against sede arguments. (Note: he talks about how this growth will continue "to the end of the century" presupposing that the Chastisement will not have happened)
What do sedes make of this? 

Also, if anyone here has a better source about Archbishop Thuc, it would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: SerpKerp on August 01, 2020, 12:10:05 AM
There are few sources for Thuc. I want to learn more. It sucks. 

I am a former Sedevacantist who accepts Vatican II

I guess posting Corona Chan on thumbnails is beyond the pale?
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: SerpKerp on August 01, 2020, 12:13:37 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odz1fgTk0JA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odz1fgTk0JA)

I did a long interview with the Youtuber Classical Theist on my experience as a Sedevacantist and my current views.  
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Ladislaus on August 01, 2020, 08:15:53 AM
There are few sources for Thuc. I want to learn more. It sucks.

I am a former Sedevacantist who accepts Vatican II

I guess posting Corona Chan on thumbnails is beyond the pale?

I would read his autobiography, which is out there on the internet.  It gives you a much different picture of +Thuc than you'll get from his detractors.
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Meg on August 02, 2020, 07:51:44 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odz1fgTk0JA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odz1fgTk0JA)

I did a long interview with the Youtuber Classical Theist on my experience as a Sedevacantist and my current views.  

I watched the first 45 minutes of the video. It provides a good analysis of the problems with sedevacantism in its various forms.
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 02, 2020, 09:26:21 AM
I'm curious to how Sedevacantists on this forum would respond to two of his claims/opinions that stuck out to me:

He also makes the claim towards the end that Sedevacantism is something that is "harmful" to the Church since their arguments are utilized by members of false religions to try to "disprove" the Papacy. How do sedevacantists respond to this?

Another claim he makes in his conclusion is that Sedevacantism will grow in numbers, and prove to be a serious challenge to the Novus Ordo Church, due to the overall superior Internet savvy of their movement, higher birth numbers, and the lack of the Newchurch providing serious apologetics against sede arguments. (Note: he talks about how this growth will continue "to the end of the century" presupposing that the Chastisement will not have happened)
What do sedes make of this?

Also, if anyone here has a better source about Archbishop Thuc, it would be appreciated.
.
The arguments for sedevacantism are mostly taken from Bellarmine and his theology on the papacy. That is a manifestly contra-protestant theological tradition. So, as regards the first claim, I don't know what to say except that he's just wrong. 
.
As to the second claim, I think he's probably right about more and more people doubting or outrighr denying (at least Francis's) claims. 
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 02, 2020, 10:28:01 AM
The arguments for sedevacantism are mostly taken from Bellarmine and his theology on the papacy. That is a manifestly contra-protestant theological tradition.

Yes, true, but I think what he was getting at was not oppositional to St. Bellarmine or his theology, but the notion that laymen on their own accord would  use it subjectively/privately to declare the Holy See vacant.

Also often forgotten is that St. Bellarmine didn’t actually believe the situation of an heretical pope could ever arise, and his writing on the subject is therefore largely hypothetical (ie., Much like St. Thomas More’s “Utopia,” Bellarmine is discussing things he didn’t believe could happen, and giving his abstract thoughts for the sake of argument).

But would St. Bellarmine maintain his opinions in the real world when confronted with the conciliar papacies?

I wonder.

It also gets overlooked that St. Bellarmine’s opinion is one among several, and that the Church has not made it Her own.  This aggravates the rashness and boldness of those who would unilaterally declare the see empty.

And let’s not forget there is still an unsettled debate about what St. Bellarmine’s position really is (ie., Some say he still agreed with Cajetan/Jst/Suarez that the Church had to be involved in the process, at least so far as declaring the fact of the heresy, but opposed the aforementioned writers only insofar as they believed a second judgment of the Church was necessary that Christ had deposed their pope).

But the common sede rendition has it that at any time a layman thinks a pope has committed heresy, the see becomes empty.

It is difficult to believe Bellarmine would invent a doctrine so ruinous to Church unity (particularly over the course of three generations and seven papacies, and counting), and it is in this sense that the allegation of Protestantism is made (not against Bellarmine, but against those who wield and misapply him).
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: StLouisIX on August 02, 2020, 11:09:41 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odz1fgTk0JA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odz1fgTk0JA)

I did a long interview with the Youtuber Classical Theist on my experience as a Sedevacantist and my current views.  
I watched the video as well. Helps me to understand where you're coming from on all of this, thank you for posting. I also found it helpful in clearing up a lot of things about where the various sede groups came from and their positions are, even though I disagree with the conclusions made on Vatican II by yourself and the others in later into the interview. Don't take my OP as me saying that I would like for you to become a Sedevacantist again. 
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Stubborn on August 02, 2020, 12:22:05 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odz1fgTk0JA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odz1fgTk0JA)

I did a long interview with the Youtuber Classical Theist on my experience as a Sedevacantist and my current views.  
I only listened to a few minutes, at 3:35 you commented: "...until then, you had kind of this theory of papal positivism, where God would directly prevent anything remotely coming from there, basically the Holy Ghost would protect at all times even material [heresy] from happening....." - Fr. Fenton taught pretty much this same theory as though it is a dogma or teaching of the Church.

In your initial post, you said: "I am a former Sedevacantist who accepts Vatican II."

I wonder how much of a roll, if any, this theory in particular played in your decision to leave tradition to accept V2. 




Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: StLouisIX on August 02, 2020, 09:41:40 PM


There are few sources for Thuc. I want to learn more. It sucks.

I would read his autobiography, which is out there on the internet.  It gives you a much different picture of +Thuc than you'll get from his detractors.
I remember that Lad posted the link to +Thuc’s autobiography in some other thread about him. I tried searching for it again on CI, but I couldn’t find it. But, after some searching on the Internet, I found it here: http://www.einsicht-aktuell.de/index.php?svar=2&ausgabe_id=180&artikel_id=1920 (http://www.einsicht-aktuell.de/index.php?svar=2&ausgabe_id=180&artikel_id=1920)

Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Aristotl on August 03, 2020, 12:47:14 AM
As to Archbishop Thuc there are a few statements of his that are out there that are very BAD. These are documented and I will give the source so all of you will be able to find them. Let the Archbishop speak for himself.

 1. “ ‘Concerning the attraction of non-Christians to the Church.’ With great consolation I see present in these assem-
blies the delegates of the non-Christian Churches, to be witnesses of our fraternity, sincerity and liberty. But where are

the delegates or observers of the non-Christians? ...The scandal coming to the whole world from the absence of any
invitations sent to the chiefs of the non-Christian religions I expounded in the central commission—but in vain. I
earnestly begged the council to make good the omission, so that this most loathsome discrimination between some
religions may no longer be found. This absence of an invitation to the heads of the Christian religions confirms in a
certain manner that prejudice creeping through the Asiatic and African world: ‘The Catholic Church is a church for
men of white colour and not for coloured men.’” (Acta Synodalia Vaticani II, vol. 2, part 1, pp. 358-359)
2. “...it seems to me an extraordinary thing that in the schema concerning the people of God, express mention
is nowhere made of women, so that the Church appears totally masculine, whereas the reality is quite different. Do
not women constitute the greater part of the laity—even of ecclesiastical prescriptions? Of course I well know the
Church had to behave like this in order not to offend the prejudices of those ages. Thus, St. Paul imposed the veil
on women in Church, lest they displease the angels. So why must men proudly enter the church bareheaded which
is contrary to the custom of clerics today both in the West and the East? In the same way, silence was imposed on
women whereas in this Basilica the walls recently resounded to the voices of the Fathers. So too, nuns must obtain
the permission of churches to wash the sacred linens. And likewise this unjust discrimination appears here and now

in this conciliar hall... Why is it that in our atomic age, when almost everywhere in the world women have ob-
tained juridical equality with men, it is only in the Church of Christ that they still suffer these injurious discrimi-
nations... I eagerly seek... these discriminations against the most valiant sex be eradicated. Last, of all I shall be

grateful to him who can present me with a plain apodictic text of the Gospel which excludes the sisters of the
Blessed Virgin Mary from the sacred functions [i.e. the priesthood].” (Acta Synodalia Vaticani II, vol. 2, part 3, pp.513
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 03, 2020, 09:32:29 AM
Yes, true, but I think what he was getting at was not oppositional to St. Bellarmine or his theology, but the notion that laymen on their own accord would  use it subjectively/privately to declare the Holy See vacant.

Also often forgotten is that St. Bellarmine didn’t actually believe the situation of an heretical pope could ever arise, and his writing on the subject is therefore largely hypothetical (ie., Much like St. Thomas More’s “Utopia,” Bellarmine is discussing things he didn’t believe could happen, and giving his abstract thoughts for the sake of argument).
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Well, that is a problem (in his view, anyways) that applies to traditionalist methods as such, not to sedevacantist 'arguments.' 
.
All traditionalists use private judgment to 'declare' that the conciliar magisterium is at odds with the Catholic magisterium, that the New Mass is fɾαυdulent, and so forth.  Sedevacantists use this method no more or less than any other traditionalist uses it. 
.
Serp Kerp can actually make this argument, if he accepts Vatican II (by the hermeneutic of continuity, I assume).  But I do not see how any traditionalist could make that argument for very long before it collapses inward.
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 03, 2020, 09:39:18 AM
Thuc is a complicated character, but there are two extremes that ought to be avoided.  On the one hand, people like Bishop Kelly (and his supporters) are utterly unforgiving and unreasonable in their assessment, acknowledging only the scummier of the Thuc consecrations, and only ever interpreting them as either a function of Thuc's insanity or unorthodoxy (when I would maintain the best interpretation is simply that he was conned).  On the other hand, some sedevacantists want to make him out to be the sedevacantist ABL, and this view also has to be very selective in its reading of history, because Thuc was not much of a leader and he made some mistakes that have to be acknowledged.
.
Thuc is a pitiable figure who I think did his best.  That includes providing three very good and capable bishops (Carmona, Guerard des Lauriers, and Zamora) who were strong leaders and who helped grow the traditionalist priesthood.  That also includes a lamentable level of credulity, especially early on, with the Palmarian consecrations; as well as a potential for being bullied and manipulated by those with power (e.g. his vacillations with the Vatican).  It is easy to understand why he is such a polarizing figure, given the highs and lows of his ministry, but a charitable approach will generate a more balanced view of the man and his life.
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Incredulous on August 03, 2020, 10:48:36 AM
Very well stated Mit!

The Archbishop of South Vietnam was a most complex character.

But how many Catholics would have been able to persevere the times as he did?

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fd3trabu2dfbdfb.cloudfront.net%2F9%2F2%2F927352_o.jpeg&f=1&nofb=1)



(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F68%2Fed%2Ff5%2F68edf5b8bb48cf63d29d7e2329686dc6--ngo-dinh-diem-new-year-celebration.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)

His brother, President Diem was αssαssιnαtҽd and his country was subsequently blown apart by the Vietnam War.



(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2Fimages%2Fg%2FJO4AAOSwX1ZeZCFC%2Fs-l300.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)


He was excommunicated by one of the sleaziest, ʀɛʋօʟutιօnary jew popes, the world has ever known.


And he was conned, abused and misused in America, as you said.


But he was an Archbishop in a time of severe Canonical crisis

And he conferred the Sacraments, without having the protection or backing of the likes of the Pallavacini "Black Nobility" or Mr. Lovey.


(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.tB7q2siSo6gL5i5WvBJRaAHaGd%26pid%3DApi&f=1)







(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftodayscatholicworld.com%2Fbishop-thuc-palmar-consecration-spain-validity.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)


(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fs-mєdια-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F236x%2F92%2Ff7%2F3b%2F92f73b0b14f934289d0484ea8d9c359d.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)

He made mistakes, but we should be thankful for his fortitude and perseverance to Catholic tradition.

Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Aristotl on August 04, 2020, 02:19:36 AM
He was made an Archbishop by John XXIII who started Vatican Council II and was pretty close to Paul VI. Paul VI continued what John XXIII started.
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: maccabeansoft on August 04, 2020, 02:36:19 AM
He was made an Archbishop by John XXIII who started Vatican Council II and was pretty close to Paul VI. Paul VI continued what John XXIII started.

John XXIII is the founder of the Second Vatican Council. Then again, whatever John XXIII's disposition was, we don't fully know. Before the second session of the council could open, John XXIII died. Pope John XXIII never signed one document of the Second Vatican Council. In fact on his deathbed, John XXIII's last words as reported by Jean Guitton who was a peritus at the council were: "Stop the Council; Stop the Council." The Second Vatican Council stomped on John XXIII because John XXIII wanted the Second Vatican Council to be more like the First Vatican Council or the Council of Trent. The Catholic Church was infiltrated. John XXIII was very upset after the first session of the council when he realized that the papacy had lost control of the whole process. John XXIII solemnly confirmed the use of Latin, reaffirmed traditional practices, condemned all attempts at modernism when it came to the celebrant of the Holy Mass, ordered Gregorian Chant, and forbade women from entry to the altar area. All of this got stomped on. John XXIII created a monster.
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Incredulous on August 04, 2020, 09:11:35 AM


Mac,

As my dear Grandmother used to say, "Bless your heart".  I wish it were true.  

As the photos below show, Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli had a lot of issues.

The following link might be the most articulate overview of the high-jacking or "Eclipse" of the Catholic Church in 1958.

White Smoke 1958 (https://youtu.be/EzuybJKLKwg)





(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.kHCyQ5eVRbjGQvZbzRh6fwAAAA%26pid%3DApi&f=1)


(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.Qen_y4CrPQtfZYCEgR9JdQHaKI%26pid%3DApi&f=1)

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourladyisgod.com%2Fimages%2Fimg-freemasons%2Fsmoking-pope.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)


(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourladyisgod.com%2Fimages%2Fimg-Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ-in-your-church%2Fjohn-xxiii-masonic-handshake.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourladyisgod.com%2Fimages%2Fimg-Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ-in-your-church%2Ffreemason-paul-vi-roncalli-john-xxiii-masonic-handshake.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Ladislaus on August 04, 2020, 11:01:24 AM
This was has much more detail about Roncalli ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE2MbPsaZYo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE2MbPsaZYo)
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: songbird on August 04, 2020, 11:45:22 AM
What is not being said and needs to be said is there are 2 Thuc lines.  Bishop Moises Carmona and Bishop Guerard des Lauriers.  They are different.

The First post of difference is minor and favors the line of consecrations initiated by Archbishop Lefebvre.

While the consecrations of Archbishop Thuc were conferred in a secret manner, great publicity surrounded the consecrations  at Econe. but after the consecrations of Guerard des Lauriers and the Mexican priests, the attacks on Archbishop Thuc led to their losing their secret character. They became public and Rome provided these consecrations with the notoriety which they formerly lacked.

Second difference favors the line established by Archbishop Thuc.  Those consecrations performed by Archbishop Thuc were performed by someone (?) who had recognized and publicly declared the Holy See lacked a formaliter pope. Two fortunate things followed from this recognition of the absence of any Authority.  It allowed both consecrator and those consecrated to invoke the principle of epikeia in presuming an apostolic mandate and as a result rendered the consecrations conferred, not only valid, but also licit.

Bishop Carmona was the 2nd difference compared to Bishop Guerard des Lauriers.  What is understood is Bishop Carmona was correct. 
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Incredulous on August 04, 2020, 11:51:28 AM
This was has much more detail about Roncalli ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE2MbPsaZYo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE2MbPsaZYo)

As Bp. Williamson has said, give those thirsting for knowledge, drink through a sponge initially,
lest they be overwhelmed and scandalized by it.
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Ladislaus on August 04, 2020, 01:13:02 PM
As Bp. Williamson has said, give those thirsting for knowledge, drink through a sponge initially,
lest they be overwhelmed and scandalized by it.

This is a great series of videos.  I haven't seen them in years; thanks for posting the link.
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: donkath on August 05, 2020, 08:04:50 AM
I think this is one of the series:

https://youtu.be/hWyUMQy9VIs (https://youtu.be/hWyUMQy9VIs)


In it he brings up Malachi Martin round min. 47 or a bit later.

Can you comment on that please?  Is it true what he says there?
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Ladislaus on August 05, 2020, 11:59:06 AM
In it he brings up Malachi Martin round min. 47 or a bit later.

Can you comment on that please?  Is it true what he says there?

Yes, Malachi Martin is a nefarious character, probably a crypto-Jew.  There have been many threads on him.

I like the part where he's talking about Martin's reaction (a bit after the segment you called out), where he stated his theory that they elected Siri on purpose, allowed him to accept, and THEN forced him out so that the subsequent plant would not have the grace of office that would prevent him from damaging the Church the way they ended up doing.
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Ladislaus on August 05, 2020, 04:28:17 PM
Melanie Calvat (seer at La Salette):

"The Church will be eclipsed. At first, we will not know which is the true pope. Then secondly, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass will cease to be offered in churches and houses; it will be such that, for a time, there will not be public services any more. But I see that the Holy Sacrifice has not really ceased: it will be offered in barns, in alcoves, in caves, and underground." (Abbot Combe: "The Secret of Melanie and the Actual Crisis", Rome, 1906, p. 137)

She even lays out the sequence.

1) true Pope is not known (1958)
2) Holy Sacrifice will cease and be exiled from the churches (1969)
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Stanley N on August 05, 2020, 04:50:19 PM
She even lays out the sequence.
1) true Pope is not known (1958)
2) Holy Sacrifice will cease and be exiled from the churches (1969)
If one were to assume this vision is now history, wouldn't other events fit the language better?
1) We will not know which is the true pope: Benedict/Francis
2) for a time, there will not be public services any more: Closing due to CÖVÌD
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Ladislaus on August 05, 2020, 06:20:04 PM
If one were to assume this vision is now history, wouldn't other events fit the language better?
1) We will not know which is the true pope: Benedict/Francis
2) for a time, there will not be public services any more: Closing due to CÖVÌD

I seriously doubt that Our Lady was warning of a 2-month CÖVÌD shutdown.

And there are maybe a couple hundred people in the world who think Benedict is still pope.

Then combine that with other parts of LaSalette about Rome losing the faith and becoming the seat of the Antichrist.
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Stanley N on August 05, 2020, 06:51:02 PM
And there are maybe a couple hundred people in the world who think Benedict is still pope.
"At first, we will not know which is the true pope."
Nobody knows what happened inside the conclave. There was no question "which" is the pope. According to the wiki the "Siri thesis" wasn't proposed until the 1980s.
And if you want to go by numbers, I'm not sure many people even know about the "Siri thesis".
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: SerpKerp on August 09, 2020, 08:01:28 PM
sorry if these reponses are clumsy relearned how this website works again
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: SerpKerp on August 09, 2020, 08:03:14 PM


I wonder how much of a roll, if any, this theory in particular played in your decision to leave tradition to accept V2.
I have read alot of Church history and the documents of Vatican II and earlier councils and I think the precision needed in a council is not that extreme. 

I think that the requirement of sunday obligation outweights the absolute need of Latin mass over Novus Ordo mass.

Obviously the council and what has happened sense is a disaster beyond words. 
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Incredulous on August 09, 2020, 09:54:57 PM
I have read alot of Church history and the documents of Vatican II and earlier councils and I think the precision needed in a council is not that extreme.

I think that the requirement of sunday obligation outweights the absolute need of Latin mass over Novus Ordo mass.

Obviously the council and what has happened sense is a disaster beyond words.

But, show me a previous Church Council where the theology behind the Council documents was not Catholic?

In this respect, Vatican II was unique.
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 09, 2020, 10:17:33 PM

Quote
I think that the requirement of sunday obligation outweights the absolute need of Latin mass over Novus Ordo mass.

One’s Sunday obligation is not fulfilled by attendance at a mass that has any (or all) of the following:
.
1. doubtful mass due to anti-catholic, Protestant, humanistic theology.
.
2.  A positively doubtful consecration, per the theologians, Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci.
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3.  Said by a doubtful priest.
.
4.  Said by a V2 accepting heretic priest.
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5.  An illicit mass which gravely violates Quo Primum.
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6.  A mass which allows sacrilegious communion-in-the-hand, as well as multiple other moral scandals such as pervasive immodest dress, irreverent talking/acting and lack of prayerful silence.  
.
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: donkath on August 09, 2020, 10:55:06 PM
Quote
I think that the requirement of sunday obligation outweights the absolute need of Latin mass over Novus Ordo mass.

I value your opinion SerpKerp but I remember that +ABL said somewhere that one can forgo one's Sunday obligation rather than attend the NO. If I find the quote I will post it.
Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Incredulous on August 09, 2020, 11:45:35 PM

And where would you draw the line?


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Even Card, Bergolio attended this "Flamenco" mass
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Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: Stubborn on August 10, 2020, 05:25:13 AM
I have read alot of Church history and the documents of Vatican II and earlier councils and I think the precision needed in a council is not that extreme.

I think that the requirement of sunday obligation outweights the absolute need of Latin mass over Novus Ordo mass.

Obviously the council and what has happened sense is a disaster beyond words.
But this does not address my question at all.

My question to you is, did the idea you stated: "...until then, you had kind of this theory of papal positivism, where God would directly prevent anything remotely coming from there, basically the Holy Ghost would protect at all times even material [heresy] from happening....." play a part in your decision to leave tradition to accept V2? 



Title: Re: Video: Archbishop Thuc and his Legacy
Post by: StLouisIX on August 10, 2020, 06:32:16 PM
I have read alot of Church history and the documents of Vatican II and earlier councils and I think the precision needed in a council is not that extreme.

I think that the requirement of sunday obligation outweights the absolute need of Latin mass over Novus Ordo mass.

Obviously the council and what has happened sense is a disaster beyond words.
It seems to me that if you accept Vatican II as a Council of the Church, then logically you have to go along with the liberal interpretation of the documents that has been held by the overwhelming majority of the Church hierarchy. Either this or you must put yourself in the position where you say that these liberal interpretations are tolerable for a Catholic to hold, even though they directly contradict the Faith, but that you personally will interpret the Conciliar documents conservatively. I underlined "personally" because it indicates what I think to be the greatest problem of Vatican II: Subjectivism. Catholicism is an objective religion (and the only true one at that), not a subjective religion. If someone can choose to interpret the Catholic religion either conservatively or liberally accord to their mere whims and still be a Catholic, then it undermines the objective basis and teachings of our Faith that have been given to us by God. This point has been made by others, such as Bishop Williamson.
(By liberal interpretations, I mean things such as Nostra Aetatae being used to justify the Modernist Ecumenism as seen in the infamous Assisi meetings)
Archbishop Lefebvre explains what I'm getting at far better in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_bkIlFU6YA&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_bkIlFU6YA&feature=youtu.be)
From 0:00-1:43
[Note: this recording is from a conference in the US in which +ABL spoke in English, so the grammar is a bit choppy here and there]
"Some, they said, the Council is good, was good, and is good...but only the reforms, they are bad. But that is not true. Why? Because when from Rome came the reform, they say always that the reform they do in the name of the Council! In the name of the Council! It is evident that all [the] reforms came from the Council, and if the reform is bad [it] is impossible that the Council is good and all the reforms are bad. Because that is authentic interpretation of the Council by Rome! Rome said [that] 'In the name of the Declaration on Liturgy we [will] do [a] liturgical reform'. We can say, 'But that is not in the text of this declaration'. But, these men have authority to say that this is speaking from the Council. They know that! And I am sure that [it] is in the Council. Even [if] it is not explicitly in the Council, but it is in the spirit of the Council." - Arcbishop Lefebrve, Lecture in the United States (1976)