Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Caminus on June 17, 2011, 10:21:51 AM
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http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/06/quaeritur-is-it-sinful-to-go-to-saturday-evening-mass-if-you-can-go-on-sunday/
All you FSSP priests be warned, too close association with the Novus Ordo will ruin your ability to make even the most basic distinctions, while words lose all meaning and the loss of the essence of things causes grave intellectual blindness.
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Materialism in piety...
This problem has been eating away at the minds and souls of men for a long time. Nothing will turn things around until the ongoing Purification has run its course.
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Okay Fr. Z, I realize this is high level philosophy, so brace yourself: Saturday is not Sunday when time is calculated from midnight. To claim a Saturday evening Mass is a vigil is absurd on its face and attending Mass on Saturdy certainly doesn't relieve one of the obligation to attend Mass on Sunday. This amounts to a de facto transfer of the Holy Day to Saturday which is not altogether surprising considering the amount of Judaizers in the Church, though this motive is not explicitly stated. It is rather a little twist of irony and highly symbolic.
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Caminus said:
All you FSSP priests be warned, too close association with the Novus Ordo will ruin your ability to make even the most basic distinctions, while words lose all meaning and the loss of the essence of things causes grave intellectual blindness.
Words like "infallibility"? :wink:
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Or even fallibility. :wink:
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This amounts to a de facto transfer of the Holy Day to Saturday which is not altogether surprising considering the amount of Judaizers in the Church, though this motive is not explicitly stated. It is rather a little twist of irony and highly symbolic.
I never had thought of this before: that the anticipation of the Sundays in the N. O. is a sign of the Judaical supremacists' agenda to destroy the Church and corrupt the faithful.
It is symbolic in that they have taken the cult of man to such a degree that they have supplanted Christ's institution of the Sunday as the Lord's Day in order to accommodate the "needs" of modern man.
Fine vestments and artfully performed rubricated theatre cannot make up for neither a lack of sound theological orientation or a lively and devout faith based upon such an orientation. Liturgy without faith, and faith without good theology, seem to go together nowadays in the case of such unfortunate individuals.
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The indult community already do these "anticipated" Masses on occasion. Every year for the past five or six (I think) Holy Rosary parish in Indianapolis--where the "approved" extraordinary form is celebrated--has a Christmas Mass in the early evening of Christmas Eve. The FSSP priest who started it claimed that what is listed as the "Midnight Mass" is really, in the Latin text, "Mass at Night", and can therefore be celebrated anytime after the sun has set.
Furthermore, this parish also celebrates the anticipated Mass on Saturday night in the "extraordinary form" the day before the Indianapolis 500 each May so that parishioners who are "attached to an older form" of the liturgy can go to Mass Saturday night and still get to the Racetrack early. After all, the traffic can be murder. For evidence, please check out the Holy Rosary bulletin for the Sunday prior to the race THIS YEAR:
http://www.holyrosaryindy.org/files/bulletin/2011/Bulletin%20110522.pdf
I'm still wondering how long it will be before this becomes a weekly event.
I've often wondered how it is the "day" can start at 4:00 pm (the earliest anticipation Mass I know of) but not end until 8:00 pm the following day. Conciliar parishes routinely celebrate Sunday Mass as early as Saturday afternoon at 4:00 pm, a few Sunday morning Masses, and even a Sunday evening Mass at 6:00 pm or 7:00 pm. If the Saturday 4:00 pm Mass counts as a Sunday Mass, then why, I've always wondered, is a Sunday night Mass at 7:00 pm Mass not counted as the Monday Mass? I've never understood how a Holy Day of Obligation can be fulfilled by attending Mass anytime from mid-afternoon the day before until midnight the day of the Holy Day. But then I learned that the New Code of Canon Law pretty much says that a day begins and ends whenever you want it to begin and end. Thus, one day could be just 15 hours long while another day could be 30 hours long.
For my musing, I'm usually told that I'm just being like the Pharisees.
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If you read the article on "Vigils" in the Catholic Encyclopedia, it becomes immediately evident that the notion that there can be a "vigil" for every Sunday of the year is absurd.
I'm curious, TKGS, what canon law is cited to support the assertion that the calculation of time is essentially arbitrary?
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If you read the article on "Vigils" in the Catholic Encyclopedia, it becomes immediately evident that the notion that there can be a "vigil" for every Sunday of the year is absurd.
I'm curious, TKGS, what canon law is cited to support the assertion that the calculation of time is essentially arbitrary?
Firstly, the Novus Ordo does not say that the "Sunday" Mass on Saturday is a "vigil Mass". They say it is an "anticipated Mass". Vigils are completely separate Masses and the attendance of a Vigil Mass does not count for attendance at a Mass the following day. For example, if you attend a Vigil Mass of a Holy Day, you must still attend Mass on the Holy Day. If, in the Novus Ordo, you attend the anticipated Mass the afternoon or evening before a Holy Day (including Sundays) they pretend that you are relieved of any requirement to attend Mass on the Holy Day itself. Note that even under the 1962 Mass, the earliest Christmas Mass is at midnight (thus on Christmas Day) and the Easter Vigil service is NOT a Mass; it is a service held in the late evening scheduled so that the actual Mass will begin as close to midnight as possible, thus fulfilling the Easter Mass. Other vigil Masses are celebrated in the morning on the day before the Holy Day. Of course, these requirements are being ignored in some indult parishes.
Secondly, Canon 32 § 1 of the Code of Canon Law (1917) states: "A day consists of 24 consecutive hours; calculated from midnight".
Canon 202 § 1 of the 1983 codes states: "In law, a day is understood as a period consisting of 24 continuous hours and begins at midnight unless other provision is expressly made" [Emphasis added]. Thus, in the Novus Ordo, Sunday is often held to begin as early as 4:00 pm Saturday afternoon while Monday is usually not held to begin until midnight. Thus, one may completely fulfill his duty to keep holy the Lord's Day by attending Mass on Saturday, leaving Sunday free for football or, as I noted in a previous post, to attend the Indianapolis 500 race. Other provisions, you see, have been made. It is, as I noted, essentially an arbitrary decision made at the diocesan or, sometimes, parsih level.
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I've heard it defended on the grounds that in the ancient church days were counted from sundown to sundown. Still it seems they have their cake and eat it too by recognizing Sunday as 24 hours plus whatever hours after sundown on Sat. In addition, the Saturday evening Masses are rarely after sundown anyway.
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"Keep holy the Lord's Day" is a commandment. Separate from that is the Church's law that one must assist at Mass on Sunday. The Church can alter this law as She sees fit. Thus allowing the Sunday Mass to be said on Saturday evening, out of generosity to the faithful, is completely within Her purview is it not?
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"Keep holy the Lord's Day" is a commandment. Separate from that is the Church's law that one must assist at Mass on Sunday. The Church can alter this law as She sees fit. Thus allowing the Sunday Mass to be said on Saturday evening, out of generosity to the faithful, is completely within Her purview is it not?
You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. I'll let you figure out why. Besides, if the Church were going to do something as momentous as what you state, one would think it would have been formally legislated. The N.O. apologists can't cite any. Can you?
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Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.
The particulars of the Sunday Mass obligation are disciplinary rules of the Church that can be modified.
Doesn't the Society recognize the legality of the post conciliar disciplinary laws, such as the reduction of the Eucharistic fast, etc. even if it recommends that its followers keep the old disciplinary practice?
To have the opinion that the better rule would be to limit Sunday Masses to the 24 hour calendar day is one thing. To say that assisting at a Sat. evening Mass doesn't count for Sunday and is sinful, when the Church says otherwise, is quite another.
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http://www.sspx.org/catholic_faqs/catholic_faqs__canonical.htm#saturdayvigil
Does a Saturday evening "vigil" Mass satisfy the Sunday obligation?
...The novelty came with the 1983 Code of Canon Law, which permitted the faithful to satisfy their obligation of assisting at Mass on a Sunday or Holy Day either on the day itself or the afternoon or evening beforehand (canon 1248, §1). What are we to think of this? It is certainly true that the highest legislative authority in the Church, the pope, technically has the right to modify the First Precept of the Church, since it is of ecclesiastical law, and not of divine law. It is this ecclesiastical law that obliges under pain of mortal sin, as defined by Pope Innocent XI, and so consequently a person could not be accused of mortal sin for simply availing himself of the privilege of assisting at Mass on the afternoon before a Sunday or feast day.
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Is Sunday considered a feast day or are you merely extrapolating the law? According to the calculation of time, both canonically and liturgically, the day begins at midnight. Attending Mass on Saturday is a de facto transfer of the Holy Day, yet there is no provision in law stating that this has occurred.
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Is Sunday considered a feast day or are you merely extrapolating the law? According to the calculation of time, both canonically and liturgically, the day begins at midnight. Attending Mass on Saturday is a de facto transfer of the Holy Day, yet there is no provision in law stating that this has occurred.
The Society confirms the canon in question applies to Sunday and that the Church has the right to make Masses on Saturday evening count for Sunday.
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Well, atleast Santo is quoting the SSPX now. Let's hope that leads to something...
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Is Sunday considered a feast day or are you merely extrapolating the law? According to the calculation of time, both canonically and liturgically, the day begins at midnight. Attending Mass on Saturday is a de facto transfer of the Holy Day, yet there is no provision in law stating that this has occurred.
The Society confirms the canon in question applies to Sunday and that the Church has the right to make Masses on Saturday evening count for Sunday.
I don't dispute that the Church has the authority to change the day, that is the common opinion of theologians; what I dispute, and I'm sure Fr. Scott, among others would agree, is that the immediate context of the canon in question pertains to Feast Days and not every single Sunday of the year. Aside from the absurdity of having a "vigil" Mass for every Sunday, even if I granted that the law could be applied in the case of Sunday, you would still have to surmount the problem of interpreting the law as an exception and not the rule. Indeed, considering there has been no formal change of days (you have not cited the decree) the interpretation of the canon in question should be dictated by traditional jurisprudence.
In this case, the true sense of the canon would envisage a justifying excuse to attend Mass on Saturday to fulfill the obligation of Sunday, an entirely different day. Consequently to understand the law as if it applied equally without distinction, without any need of a justifying cause, to Saturday as well as Sunday and thus a matter of mere preference, is erroneous. For that would imply a de facto change from Sunday to Saturday (per the calculation of time) and the law nowhere indicates that this is the intention of the lawgiver. Thus the only rational interpretation of the canon is that it applies to those who have a justifying excuse to miss Mass on Sunday, but can attend on Saturday. The extension of which is an attempt at being equitable no doubt, but nevertheless, an exception to the rule always requires a justifying cause.
The fact that it is a badly worded canon would certainly excuse many from mortal sin. But in the case of Bishops and priests, they are undoubtedly committing sin by leading people astray in this matter. For as a matter of fact, every single Catholic now believes that going to Mass on Saturday fulfills ones obligation equally well as attending on Sunday. This is certainly erroneous. Until such a time when the Church formally changes the day, it must be considered erroneous.
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But Fr. Scott admits the Canon applies to Sundays in the quote I provided above.
The novelty came with the 1983 Code of Canon Law, which permitted the faithful to satisfy their obligation of assisting at Mass on a Sunday or Holy Day either on the day itself or the afternoon or evening beforehand (canon 1248, §1).
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But Fr. Scott admits the Canon applies to Sundays in the quote I provided above.
The novelty came with the 1983 Code of Canon Law, which permitted the faithful to satisfy their obligation of assisting at Mass on a Sunday or Holy Day either on the day itself or the afternoon or evening beforehand (canon 1248, §1).
And I'm certain that if he would have examined the matter more closely, as opposed to writing a short paragraph on the question, he would have also pointed out what I have stated above. Or he may have been speaking as a matter of fact as what is actually occurring in the Novus Ordo while not providing his own commentary on the meaning and import of the canon itself. Either way, I believe my statement above is cogent and sound. Either way you cut the pie, Catholics attending Mass on Saturday as a matter of preference or indifference, being deceived in the matter, is an evil custom that has developed in recent times. I don't think any reasonable man could differ with me on that. And the fact that you have offered no rebutal seems to indicate you have nothing further to add. Thus it stands, Fr. "Z's" statement in the OP is seriously misleading on this point as well as others.
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"Keep holy the Lord's Day" is a commandment. Separate from that is the Church's law that one must assist at Mass on Sunday. The Church can alter this law as She sees fit. Thus allowing the Sunday Mass to be said on Saturday evening, out of generosity to the faithful, is completely within Her purview is it not?
No. The Church cannot make law that is contrary to God's law. It would be like the Church making an eighth sacrament (wait...I forgot...the conciliar church already did that), or a law making condom use morally acceptable (oops, it's not quite been put in writing yet, but Benedict's quote has already reached a worldwide audience), or authorizing divorce with a right to remarry (What?!)
It seems that the conciliar church has been making changes to the unchangeable moral laws of God for years.
Back to the specific question at hand: The Church cannot make a law contrary to God's law. Keeping the Lord's Day, i.e., Sunday, holy is God's law. No authority on earth can change that. The Church can change feast days at will. The Church can make any day of the year outside Sunay a Holy Day of Obligation and prescribe when and how those obligations can be fulfilled. If the Church wanted to allow Christmas day an obligation that can be fulfilled by attending Mass on July 25th, the Church could do so (though I suggest the True Church would never do so). This is entirely a man-made law subject to the whim of men. Sundays, however, are not man-made and keeping that day holy is not simply a disciplinary issue.
By the way, even attendance at Mass on Sunday is not so obligatory so as to bind the conscience when one does not have a Sunday Mass available to him. On the other hand, if one was in a location hundreds of miles from a Catholic Mass, one would not, by that reason, have permission to simply treat Sunday as just another day or sleep in, catch the football game, and get drunk. He must still "keep that day holy" in some meaningful way. The Society recommends praying the 15 decade Rosary and reading the Mass Propers of the Day.
By the way, the habit of celebrating the Novus Ordo the day before the Lord's Day and Holy Days began years before the 1983 code. The practice itself was born out of laziness and disobedience.
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Santo, are TKGS and myself making any sense to you?
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Santo, are TKGS and myself making any sense to you?
He usually doesn't respond when someone blows him out of the water so don't expect a response. :laugh1:
He normally only posts on weekends anyway.
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TKGS,
You seem to be, in part, making the same point I did. God's law, the ten commandments, say to keep holy the Lord's day. The Church has made this day Sunday in light of the Resurrection, transferred from the Sabbath which is Saturday.
So, indeed, we are required to keep Sunday holy. This is the divine law. However, the Sunday Mass obligation is Church made law. The Society article points this out. The Church obliges us to assist at Mass on Sunday under pain of mortal sin in order to assist us in making Sunday holy, but this is still a Church made obligation.
Thus, since the Church controlls the Mass obligation, it also has the power to declare that Masses at certain times on Saturday evening fulfill this obligation. This is separate and distinct from our obligation as Catholics to keep Sunday holy. I believe it comes from the ancient practice of counting sundown as the beginning of the next day.
I hope I've explained my position so that it is more understandable, even if you disagree. I believe one can fully disagree with the Church's prudential decision to allow Saturday evening Masses to fulfill the Sunday obligation and petition for Her to change the rule back to what it was. That said, I do not believe a Catholic can say that Saturday evening Masses do not fulfill the obligation or are somehow sinful. This would be usurping the authority of the Church in matters clearly under her jurisdiction. I believe even the Society article takes this position.
I believe the Church allows the Saturday evening Mass to count for the Sunday obligation out of generosity. There is a St. Josemaria video where he speaks of this. I will try to find it for you.
God bless.
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Remember that attendance at Mass is what the Church declares is the minimum requirement for keeping the Lord's Day Holy. If you do nothing else on Sunday but attend Holy Mass, not even God will condemn you in any way. On the other hand, if you go to Mass on Saturday, you may have complied with man-made church law, but you have not done the minimum to comply with the Law of God and if you treat Sunday as just another day (because you have complied with the man-made law), God will not be appeased.
It is not a "generosity" of the Church to tell souls that they are keeping Sunday holy by keeping Saturday holy. In fact, it is another piece of evidence that the church that made such a law is not the Catholic Church.
You saw a......St. Josemaria (?) video? Isn't he the founder of Opus Dei and the patron saint of Modernists?
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A couple days ago I read in Wikipedia that JPII "canonized" more saints than five centuries of ( true ) Popes before him PUT TOGETHER. I actually laughed when I read this, though that may not have been the most distinguished reaction. It's just so absurd, it's like something from The Onion. How can anyone believe this guy was a true Pope? It's a complete joke.
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A couple days ago I read in Wikipedia that JPII "canonized" more saints than five centuries of ( true ) Popes before him PUT TOGETHER. I actually laughed when I read this, though that may not have been the most distinguished reaction. It's just so absurd, it's like something from The Onion. How can anyone believe this guy was a true Pope? It's a complete joke.
I myself am having a hard time believing he was a true Pope. For now though, I hold him as a bad Pope. We'll see where things go from there.