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Author Topic: Vatican Set to Beatify Unborn Child  (Read 3002 times)

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Offline Marulus Fidelis

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Re: Vatican Set to Beatify Unborn Child
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2023, 01:51:56 PM »
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  • Geremia, don't you wish to cover your Pelagianism in the veil of more accepted errors such as Baptism of Blood?

    Just assert that the unborn have received Baptism of Blood and voila, you're no longer a Pelagian but a middle-of-the-road traditionalist.

    I wonder how Pelagius didn't come up with that genius excuse... 

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Vatican Set to Beatify Unborn Child
    « Reply #16 on: September 17, 2023, 01:53:26 PM »
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  • While I'm here, I heard this nonsense how if a baby is killed in odium fidei it somehow makes it receive baptism of blood. I guess you're the best person to find the earliest reference to something like that Geremia so it'd be great if you could.


    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Vatican Set to Beatify Unborn Child
    « Reply #17 on: September 17, 2023, 02:25:24 PM »
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  • By stating that the unborn can go to Heaven is he implying that the babies were removed from the wombs of the pregnant mothers or is he implying that pregnant women were killed thus murdering the unborn as well? 

    Either way, can someone point of the passage in any preV2 catechism that states that the unborn might be saved?  I'm not familiar with this doctrine.
    As far as anyone can tell, it's not a doctrine.  That's why you're not familiar with it.  Perhaps Geremia will correct the rest of us on this, but he hasn't yet.

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Vatican Set to Beatify Unborn Child
    « Reply #18 on: September 17, 2023, 11:12:30 PM »
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  • Before one reaches the age of reason, that person cannot possibly be saved unless they have received the actual sacrament of baptism.
    Neither had the Holy Innocents reached the age of reason.
    St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Vatican Set to Beatify Unborn Child
    « Reply #19 on: September 18, 2023, 01:35:43 AM »
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  • Neither had the Holy Innocents reached the age of reason.
    It has been already pointed out to you that the obligation of baptism was only instituted after the resurrection. What part don't you understand?


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vatican Set to Beatify Unborn Child
    « Reply #20 on: September 18, 2023, 05:22:37 AM »
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  • I'm sorry, but exactly how did any members of this family die for Christ?  Exactly how are they "martyrs"?

    Offline C8Trad

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    Re: Vatican Set to Beatify Unborn Child
    « Reply #21 on: September 18, 2023, 05:38:46 AM »
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  • And now, the revolution is complete with the beatification of an unborn child

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/amp/news/255332/ulma-family-beatified-on-a-day-of-joy-in-poland
    The child wasn’t unborn.  It was born. It’s right there in the article you linked to:

    “The boy had been incorrectly described in some news reports as the first unborn child to be beatified, a key detail that the Vatican recently clarified.” 

    Online AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Vatican Set to Beatify Unborn Child
    « Reply #22 on: September 18, 2023, 06:35:30 AM »
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  • The child wasn’t unborn.  It was born. It’s right there in the article you linked to:

    “The boy had been incorrectly described in some news reports as the first unborn child to be beatified, a key detail that the Vatican recently clarified.”
    But was the child baptised?


    Offline C8Trad

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    Re: Vatican Set to Beatify Unborn Child
    « Reply #23 on: September 18, 2023, 06:48:34 AM »
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  • But was the child baptised?

    Wasn’t baptized (as far as we know) but it was born. That means the Vatican is NOT set to beatify the first unborn child. 

    And the reason I said as far as we know the child wasn’t baptized is because St. Thomas said it is possible for an Angel to administer baptism. So, if the pope not only beatifies the born child, but canonized him, no one who believes it is impossible for a non baptized child to obtain the state of grace by extra sacramental means can object to it, unless they can prove that the child had not been baptized by an Angel. 

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vatican Set to Beatify Unborn Child
    « Reply #24 on: September 18, 2023, 07:30:02 AM »
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  • The child wasn’t unborn.  It was born. It’s right there in the article you linked to:

    “The boy had been incorrectly described in some news reports as the first unborn child to be beatified, a key detail that the Vatican recently clarified.”
    Yes, according to "the Vatican", "The seventh Ulma child to die was the couple’s unnamed son, who was in the process of being born."

    So, supposedly the "martyrdoms" occurred just as she was giving birth.  Can this be verified? Because I don't believe it.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Vatican Set to Beatify Unborn Child
    « Reply #25 on: September 18, 2023, 10:03:17 AM »
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  • So, if the pope not only beatifies the born child, but canonized him, no one who believes it is impossible for a non baptized child to obtain the state of grace by extra sacramental means can object to it, unless they can prove that the child had not been baptized by an Angel.

    :laugh1:  What utter nonsense!  Do you know ANYTHING about how such processes actually worked before the Robber Church took over, strong-armed and mind-f*cked the entire formerly-Catholic world (Cooties-19, anyone?) and made a mockery of all things Roman Catholic???

    Such a baptism would actually need to be supported by hard evidence.  Contrary to your assertion, no one would need to prove a negative to object.  All sane and reasonably informed Catholics, within Traddieland and without, vehemently object to just about every single "canonization" of the V2 "Popes" and the very process thereof.  Like all they've touched, they've made a mockery of it.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline C8Trad

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    Re: Vatican Set to Beatify Unborn Child
    « Reply #26 on: September 18, 2023, 10:08:33 AM »
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  • Yes, according to "the Vatican", "The seventh Ulma child to die was the couple’s unnamed son, who was in the process of being born."

    So, supposedly the "martyrdoms" occurred just as she was giving birth.  Can this be verified? Because I don't believe it.
    And why would anyone care if you believed it or not? Are you the magisterium or just some idle busy body with too much time on their hands? 

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Vatican Set to Beatify Unborn Child
    « Reply #27 on: September 18, 2023, 10:12:24 AM »
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  • Who cares what the Vatican says or does???  They have neither Faith nor Authority and everyone that is in Traddieland is in Traddieland precisely because this is the case.  What they say is meaningless; what they do is meaningless; they are so much fuel for the fire.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline C8Trad

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    Re: Vatican Set to Beatify Unborn Child
    « Reply #28 on: September 18, 2023, 10:55:43 AM »
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  • :laugh1:  What utter nonsense!  Do you know ANYTHING about how such processes actually worked before the Robber Church took over, strong-armed and mind-f*cked the entire formerly-Catholic world (Cooties-19, anyone?) and made a mockery of all things Roman Catholic???

    Such a baptism would actually need to be supported by hard evidence.  Contrary to your assertion, no one would need to prove a negative to object.  All sane and reasonably informed Catholics, within Traddieland and without, vehemently object to just about every single "canonization" of the V2 "Popes" and the very process thereof.  Like all they've touched, they've made a mockery of it.


    There are numerous false assumptions in your comment. First, you are assuming that Traddieland is in charge of the investigation and the canonization and process, and therefore must be presented with proof of the baptism. That’s your first error. Second, you are assuming that an unbaptized baby cannot die as a martyr after baptism became obligatory, according to the general order, whereas St. Alphonsus, Doctor of the church, taught the contrary.  Since your opinion vs. his is worth nothing, it wouldn’t even be a factor under consideration.  Your third error is assuming that your criteria must be met for the child to be in heaven, namely, that he was previously baptized, in which case baptism would have to be proven during the canonization process.

    Based on all these false assumptions, you conclude that you personally, a nobody on a forum, could object to the canonization on the basis that the child was not baptized, even though you would have know why of knowing if this criteria, which you think is necessary (actual baptism), wasn’t actually met.

    What you need to realize that you aren’t the magisterium, and no conclusions you’ve reached based on your private interpretation of snippets you’ve read from magisterial docuмents matters one bit.  In the grand scheme of things, what you think means nothing, and the fact that you think it does is a bit frightening.

    Offline C8Trad

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    Re: Vatican Set to Beatify Unborn Child
    « Reply #29 on: September 18, 2023, 11:30:18 AM »
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  • One last point is that infants can be sanctified in the womb. The Blessed Mother, John the Baptist and Jeremiah are three examples that St. Thomas gives.