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Author Topic: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church  (Read 833 times)

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Offline Matthew

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  • I assume the expression "Unite the Clans" comes from the famous movie Braveheart (1995, starring Mel Gibson).

    It's one of those soundbites that SOUNDS GOOD until you give it more than 60 seconds' thought. It's a slogan for the current age, the age of distractions, the age of clickbait, Social Media, and shallow slogans and propaganda.

    But to return to my point --
    In the movie "Braveheart", the Scottish nobles' constant in-fighting weakens the Scottish cause and allows the English to run roughshod over them, dominate them politically and militarily, and make their lives miserable.

    But in that movie (historical reality aside), there was a clear leader that everyone would and SHOULD rally around: Robert the Bruce.

    In the Crisis of the Church, and the world of Tradition, there IS no such leader or heir-apparent. There is no one that stands out as different from everyone else. All are doing the same things, with the same justifications: practicing pre-Vatican II Catholicism, offering Mass and pre-V2 sacraments despite lack of Roman permission and in some cases in defiance of Roman authority, etc.

    I'm serious. In all of Traddieland, who is the heir-apparent of rightful Church Authority, who all the other Trad groups, priests and bishops should bend their will to and follow if they were smart?

    Who, in all of Traddieland, has God appointed and annointed as the one we all should follow? Unfortunately for us, the reason the Crisis has continued so long, is because God has not done this yet -- such is God's will. God has chosen, as part of the punishment and for His greater glory, to "stay out of it" thus far.

    If God wants the Crisis to continue, who am I to withstand God?
    But the idea that the scattered sheep should have solved this on their own by now -- that scattered sheep in dozens of lifeboats *clearly* should have all followed the leader of lifeboat #37 as their new king -- that argument holds zero water and no one can expect that of any human being. Each lifeboat full of sheep is just trying to survive. All the lifeboats (chapels, priests, bishops) are essentially equal.

    Essentially, there is no difference between the greatest SSPX chapel with $5 million of real estate value, hundreds of parishioners, millions in the bank, a 30-year history of operation -- and a small mission chapel with 25 parishioners, monthly Mass, inferior equipment, minimal decor, and founded less than 5 years ago. Looking at the accidents, the SSPX chapel is superior in almost every way. But fundamentally, in all the essential elements, they are equal.

    In fact, there is no guarantee about who is right and wrong about anything during the Crisis. All we have is pre-Vatican II writings, manuals, and the words of the Saints -- but we all know how inadequate that has been to break up all disagreements in the world of Tradition...
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    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #1 on: May 17, 2022, 04:41:39 PM »
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  • Everyone can say Vigano is, at the very least a priest. We have to think of Denzinger 1379: Actual grace exists outside the Catholic Church, so even if he did not have the faith at some point he has received graces from learning the traditional Mass and God has enlightened him to some degree or another on many matters. People can say Vigano is controlled but he is FAR to the right of the SSPX on nearly every issue, especially on VII. I would field that he is probably more strict on EENS than most trad clergy, too.

    This gets into personal interpretation but the way he speaks is with 100% clarity on the issues, it is like listening to a Pope at times. God willing, if he has the humility to be conditionally consecrated and calls a conclave we have a way out.

    God's will be done though. This is a chastisement like no other and who knows when we will see an end to this, but like Sean, Lad and others I see this as a potential out. The clans can be united, but that unity must be in a true Pope.
    "We dare not even start to hope until the Faith, the true Faith, and its revealed content, are secured in our minds. Only in terms of Faith do we dare to hope."


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #2 on: May 17, 2022, 04:43:43 PM »
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  • The mere notion of there being "clans" within the body of the Catholic Church shows a fundamental misunderstanding of Her nature.
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called. [1 Tim. 6:20]

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #3 on: May 17, 2022, 04:49:44 PM »
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  • Everyone can say Vigano is, at the very least a priest. We have to think of Denzinger 1379: Actual grace exists outside the Catholic Church, so even if he did not have the faith at some point he has received graces from learning the traditional Mass and God has enlightened him to some degree or another on many matters. People can say Vigano is controlled but he is FAR to the right of the SSPX on nearly every issue, especially on VII. I would field that he is probably more strict on EENS than most trad clergy, too.

    This gets into personal interpretation but the way he speaks is with 100% clarity on the issues, it is like listening to a Pope at times. God willing, if he has the humility to be conditionally consecrated and calls a conclave we have a way out.

    God's will be done though. This is a chastisement like no other and who knows when we will see an end to this, but like Sean, Lad and others I see this as a potential out. The clans can be united, but that unity must be in a true Pope.
    I don't believe that Vigano is at all controlled opposition. At worst, I believe his message may be utilized in such a way to try and divide the Church (hence my reference to Google's algorithm promoting his videos). But, only by enemies who believe that the Novus Ordo is the Catholic Church (recall the Church in eclipse prophecy). They may think promoting his message is going to cause a rift in what they believe to be the Catholic Church, when, in fact, it is playing into Providence by pushing more and more conservative Novus Ordites and tradservatives toward true Catholic orthodoxy: exactly where +Vigano appears to be finding himself these days.

    In a strange way, this false conciliar church serves as a shield for true Catholicism because Satan's pawns are too blind to see that this "fringe minority" of traditional Catholics is what remains of the Catholic Church.
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called. [1 Tim. 6:20]

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #4 on: May 17, 2022, 05:04:52 PM »
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  • I don't believe that Vigano is at all controlled opposition. At worst, I believe his message may be utilized in such a way to try and divide the Church (hence my reference to Google's algorithm promoting his videos). But, only by enemies who believe that the Novus Ordo is the Catholic Church (recall the Church in eclipse prophecy). They may think promoting his message is going to cause a rift in what they believe to be the Catholic Church, when, in fact, it is playing into Providence by pushing more and more conservative Novus Ordites and tradservatives toward true Catholic orthodoxy: exactly where +Vigano appears to be finding himself these days.

    In a strange way, this false conciliar church serves as a shield for true Catholicism because Satan's pawns are too blind to see that this "fringe minority" of traditional Catholics is what remains of the Catholic Church.
    Yeah seeing "respectable" people not willing to touch +Vigano is refreshing because if it is not him getting ignored it is him getting called a schizo or conspiracy theorist by the conciliar establishment rags and secular media. He is serving a different Master than the media, conciliar church and NGOs. He is outrageously courageous and I think will lead a lot of people in the VII sect to the truth.

    I don't think people orbiting +Vigano like Taylor Marshall are that far off tbh. I would go as far as to say I think Taylor Marshall types are similarly abandoning "respectability". He even has extended the hand to sedes multiple times recently. I think the controlled elements (1p5, r&t etc) are going after sedevacantism so hard with Flanders, Bannister and Lofton types is because they smell conciliar blood in the water and have to do damage control. +Vigano "helps" them, yes, but people this deceived are not going to be convinced by +Vigano. It is more preaching to the crowd, NO apologetics ammo.

    The mere notion of there being "clans" within the body of the Catholic Church shows a fundamental misunderstanding of Her nature.
    I think he is playing fast and loose with a colloquial term here instead of making an ecclesiology statement, for the record :)
    "We dare not even start to hope until the Faith, the true Faith, and its revealed content, are secured in our minds. Only in terms of Faith do we dare to hope."


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #5 on: May 17, 2022, 05:10:57 PM »
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  • I think he is playing fast and loose with a colloquial term here instead of making an ecclesiology statement, for the record :)
    Oh yes, that wasn't a dig at Matthew, just at the morons who came up with the slogan among trad media. :clown:
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called. [1 Tim. 6:20]

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #6 on: May 17, 2022, 09:44:18 PM »
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  • I don't follow Taylor Marshall that closely. Did he make up that term, or try to start such a movement ("Unite the clans"), or was he just promoting it from others?

    You will note I didn't mention ONCE Taylor Marshall OR Vigano in my original post.

    I was criticizing the concept, not any person(s).

    Because it's a perennial idea that just won't die within Traddieland, the whole "Why don't we all just get along?" Trad-cuмenism, as it were.
    This idea seems particularly popular among those NEWEST to Tradition; they act like they're above it all, like they've thought of something no one has thought of yet. They don't understand some of the fundamentals of the movement, obviously (such as: why would any bishops just capitulate to follow a fellow-bishop, who might be less qualified, educated, and/or intelligent than himself!)

    While there IS One True Church (founded by, and supported by Christ Himself, outside of which no one can be saved), you can't say the same thing about the groups in Tradition.
    No one can claim to have God on his side personally. They all claim to be doing God's own work, even while they fight each other *fiercely* -- some of them even resorting to committing grave (mortal) sins in the quest to out-compete and grow at the expense of their "rivals". They fight each other over money, parishioners, power, real estate, etc.

    I'm not criticizing ALL in Tradition; remember that a man walking down the street could be punched in the face by anyone. Even the holiest of saints. It DOES NOT take two to tango. It depends on what you mean by "tango". If by "tango" you mean "be involved in a fight/controversy" then that could be said about Our Lord Himself, Who was the greatest of saints -- the very model of sanctity (obviously). Remember: even a complete victim is "involved" in an attack or fight. But if by "tango" you mean descend into the gutter and fight dirty, with neither side able to claim the moral high ground, then NO, MOST DEFINITELY this does not apply to all priests, bishops, and groups.

    Some priests, bishops and groups fall into a cult mentality: the cult of a personality/group, and putting that group before all, even the good of souls. Telling souls to stay home rather than support my "competitors" for example. That is a good sign you're dealing with a de-facto cult.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #7 on: May 17, 2022, 10:01:25 PM »
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  • I originally heard the term from Michael Matt at the Remnant and immediately thought of this:

    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called. [1 Tim. 6:20]


    Offline StLouisIX

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    Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #8 on: May 17, 2022, 10:04:28 PM »
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  • I don't follow Taylor Marshall that closely. Did he make up that term, or try to start such a movement ("Unite the clans"), or was he just promoting it from others?

    I think it was actually Michael Matt of The Remnant newspaper, but Marshall promoted it on a podcast with him. 

    Here's the video I'm referencing, which I remember watching when I was still discovering Tradition: 




    But concerning your OP, your analogy is spot-on. I didn't think of it that way before, but it makes sense. I recall that Bishop Williamson once wrote that Catholics by unfortunate necessity are divided in opinion during this Crisis, as Catholics are meant to be united by a solid, faithful pope. If Catholics could unite with ease around a mere bishop as if he were the pope, we wouldn't be Catholic, we'd be something more like the Eastern Orthodox. Once we get a pope who takes his job seriously, so to speak, things will start to clear up quick. 

    Offline dxcat40

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    Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #9 on: May 17, 2022, 10:15:05 PM »
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  • ... Catholics are meant to be united by a solid, faithful pope. If Catholics could unite with ease around a mere bishop as if he were the pope, we wouldn't be Catholic, we'd be something more like the Eastern Orthodox. Once we get a pope who takes his job seriously, so to speak, things will start to clear up quick.
    Concur 100%.

    A failing of the Right is to take up with anyone who starts making great soundbites. I haven't seen this change during my short life, but perhaps someone older could correct me. We imagine there was some great conspiracy at the Second Vatican Council, but act as if they stopped then and there, and it's not possible for our favorite talking head to be compromised as well. I'm sure we all know about the generations-old conspiracy, and it should be easy enough to verify with the Great Reset, etc., that it has never stopped.

    The logical conclusion of what you point out here, Matthew, is that no one in politics should be above suspicion. Especially if they have a mainstream presence, because it's already been admitted by the media that they would never cover anyone effective against the Narrative.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #10 on: May 17, 2022, 10:55:14 PM »
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  • 👍🏼👍🏼 To Matthew.

    The only one who can “unite the clans” is a valid, licit, holy Pope who commands Christ’s Authority. There are lesser leaders here and there, each with their group of followers or detractors.  It’s like we have Matthew, Luke, John, Paul, Timothy, etc., but no Peter. 

    When there was no prophet in Israel, the Scripture tells us each one did what was right in his own sight.  A criticism to be sure, but really, what else was there to do for those living through that time?  One householder hired his own priest.  Another kept the Faith as well as possible in the home.  Yet others traveled long distances.  Still more waited years in the hope that a man of God would stop in on his way to a destination.  Some gave up and merged with the surrounding pagan cultures.  Some practiced no religion at all, but retained a few morals out of habit.  Everyone disagreed with one another.  It’s a God-ordained time of testing, then as now. 
    Our job is to persevere until the end, not to be “right” as to the year of Missal, when to sit, stand, or kneel, whether the ladies should wear hats or veils, who, if anyone, is the pope, and whose position is right, sedevacantist? R&R?  Is Benedict still pope?  Maybe pope Michael?  Some of us tend to Tradcuмenicism, others are staunchly dogmatic about this or that.  The leaders we have can and should assist us, but so far as binding the consciences of individual souls under pain of mortal sin in questionable matters, no Traditional leader has that authority.
    And if no leader, ie. Cardinal, Bishop, Priest has that authority, certainly, nobody lower down in the hierarchy has such authority.  A wise leader serves as a teacher, a mentor, an advisor, one to whom others hold themselves voluntarily accountable.  A leader who deceives himself into thinking he needs no one is certain to fall or wander hopelessly off course.  The same goes for the scattered sheep.  Wisdom is needed in discerning which leader to follow and to what extent? Although scattered, the sheep need to make contact with one another even if they choose to shelter in different sheepfolds.  The sheep who wanders off entirely alone, whether out of over confidence,despair, or curiosity is sure to fall off a cliff, starve to death, or become the wolves’ dinner. 
    The one thing that all the clans can do is to be faithful to the Rosary and the Brown Scapular as Our Lady of Fatima instructs us.  In so doing, it is impossible to be wrong.


    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #11 on: May 17, 2022, 11:11:18 PM »
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  • 👍🏼👍🏼 To Matthew.

    The only one who can “unite the clans” is a valid, licit, holy Pope who commands Christ’s Authority. There are lesser leaders here and there, each with their group of followers or detractors.  It’s like we have Matthew, Luke, John, Paul, Timothy, etc., but no Peter. 

    When there was no prophet in Israel, the Scripture tells us each one did what was right in his own sight.  A criticism to be sure, but really, what else was there to do for those living through that time?  One householder hired his own priest.  Another kept the Faith as well as possible in the home.  Yet others traveled long distances.  Still more waited years in the hope that a man of God would stop in on his way to a destination.  Some gave up and merged with the surrounding pagan cultures.  Some practiced no religion at all, but retained a few morals out of habit.  Everyone disagreed with one another.  It’s a God-ordained time of testing, then as now. 
    Our job is to persevere until the end, not to be “right” as to the year of Missal, when to sit, stand, or kneel, whether the ladies should wear hats or veils, who, if anyone, is the pope, and whose position is right, sedevacantist? R&R?  Is Benedict still pope?  Maybe pope Michael?  Some of us tend to Tradcuмenicism, others are staunchly dogmatic about this or that.  The leaders we have can and should assist us, but so far as binding the consciences of individual souls under pain of mortal sin in questionable matters, no Traditional leader has that authority.
    And if no leader, ie. Cardinal, Bishop, Priest has that authority, certainly, nobody lower down in the hierarchy has such authority.  A wise leader serves as a teacher, a mentor, an advisor, one to whom others hold themselves voluntarily accountable.  A leader who deceives himself into thinking he needs no one is certain to fall or wander hopelessly off course.  The same goes for the scattered sheep.  Wisdom is needed in discerning which leader to follow and to what extent? Although scattered, the sheep need to make contact with one another even if they choose to shelter in different sheepfolds.  The sheep who wanders off entirely alone, whether out of over confidence,despair, or curiosity is sure to fall off a cliff, starve to death, or become the wolves’ dinner. 
    The one thing that all the clans can do is to be faithful to the Rosary and the Brown Scapular as Our Lady of Fatima instructs us.  In so doing, it is impossible to be wrong.

    Excellent post, Seraphina.


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #12 on: May 18, 2022, 12:03:41 AM »
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  • :laugh1:  Thank you, Miser!

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #13 on: May 18, 2022, 01:39:04 AM »
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  • Yes, one of the most memorable chapters in Judges is Chapter 17 (I have pasted that chapter, as well as chapter 18, below) because it is SO OBVIOUS a parallel to our own time. "In those days there was no king in Israel, but every one did that which seemed right to himself." just like today "There is no pope*, so every Trad did that which he seemed right to himself." (*we can argue there is no pope literally or virtually: sedes and non-sedes can agree that we don't have a pope doing his job, or a good Catholic pope, or a pope who acts like a pope, etc.)

    But most importantly, the result is almost EXACTLY the same today vs. the time of the Judges: both are times of confusion, when the sheep were left to their own devices, some of them getting it HORRIBLY WRONG. I mean, here is an Israelite family, cast and portrayed as one of the good guys seeking to do what is right. This was not a villain; on the contrary Scripture almost goes out of its way to cast this person as being of good will ("Now I know God will do me good, since I have a priest of the race of the Levites."), but the objective truth, meanwhile, is that he was setting up a new false god, creating a new idol, like a blasted pagan! This struck me HARD when I read it 20 or 30 years ago. But Scripture leads one to understand and believe that this is a direct result, or a casualty, of the leadership vacuum that was a sad reality at the time. It's hard to draw any other conclusion from this.


    Judges Chapter 17-18

    The history of the idol of Michas, and the young Levite.

    [1] There was at that time a man of mount Ephraim whose name was Michas, [2] Who said to his mother: The eleven hundred pieces of silver, which thou hadst put aside for thyself, and concerning which thou didst swear in my hearing, behold I have, and they are with me. And she said to him: Blessed be my son by the Lord. [3] So he restored them to his mother, who said to him: I have consecrated and vowed this silver to the Lord, that my son may receive it at my hand, and make a graven and a molten god, so now I deliver it to thee. [4] And he restored them to his mother: and she took two hundred pieces of silver and gave them to the silversmith, to make of them a graven and a molten god, which was in the house of Michas. [5] And he separated also therein a little temple for the god, and made an ephod, and theraphim, that is to say, a priestly garment, and idols: and he filled the hand of one of his sons, and he became his priest.

    [5] "Filled the hand": That is, appointed and consecrated him to the priestly office.

    [6] In those days there was no king in Israel, but every one did that which seemed right to himself. [7] There was also another young man of Bethlehem Juda, of the kindred thereof: and he was a Levite, and dwelt there. [8] Now he went out from the city of Bethlehem, and desired to sojourn wheresoever he should find it convenient for him. And when he was come to mount Ephraim, as he was on his journey, and had turned aside a little into the house of Michas, [9] He was asked by him whence he came. And he answered: I am a Levite of Bethlehem Juda, and I am going to dwell where I can, and where I shall find a place to my advantage. [10] And Michas said: Stay with me, and be unto me a father and a priest, and I will give thee every year ten pieces of silver, and a double suit of apparel, and thy victuals.

    [11] He was content, and abode with the man, and was unto him as one of his sons. [12] And Michas filled his hand, and had the young man with him, for his priest, saying: [13] Now I know God will do me good, since I have a priest of the race of the Levites.

    The expedition of the men of Dan against Lais: in their way they rob Michas of his priest and his gods.

    [1] In those days there was no king in Israel, and the tribe of Dan sought them an inheritance to dwell in: for unto that day they had not received their lot among the other tribes. [2] So the children of Dan sent five most valiant men of their stock and family from Saraa and Esthaol, to spy out the land, and to view it diligently: and they said to them: Go, and view the land. They went on their way, and when they came to mount Ephraim, they went into the house of Michas, and rested there: [3] And knowing the voice of the young man the Levite, and lodging with him, they said to him: Who brought thee hither? what dost thou here? why wouldst thou come hither? [4] He answered them: Michas hath done such and such things for me, and hath hired me to be his priest. [5] Then they desired him to consult the Lord, that they might know whether their journey should be prosperous, and the thing should have effect.

    [1] "Not received": They had their portions assigned them, Jos. 19. 40. But, through their own sloth, possessed as yet but a small part of it. See Judges 1. 34.

    [6] He answered them: Go in peace, the Lord looketh on your way, and the journey that you go. [7] So the five men going on came to Lais: and they saw how the people dwelt therein without any fear, according to the custom of the Sidonians, secure and easy, having no man at all to oppose them, being very rich, and living separated, at a distance from Sidon and from all men. [8] And they returned to their brethren in Saraa and Esthaol, who asked them what they had done? to whom they answered: [9] Arise, and let us go up to them: for we have seen the land which is exceeding rich and fruitful: neglect not, lose no time: let us go and possess it, there will be no difficulty. [10] We shall come to a people that is secure, into a spacious country, and the Lord will deliver the place to us, in which there is no want of any thing that groweth on the earth.

    [11] There went therefore of the kindred of Dan, to wit, from Saraa and Esthaol, six hundred men, furnished with arms for war, [12] And going up they lodged in Cariathiarim of Juda: which place from that time is called the camp of Dan, and is behind Cariathiarim. [13] From thence they passed into mount Ephraim. And when they were come to the house of Michas, [14] The five men, that before had been sent to view the land of Lais, said to the rest of their brethren: You know that in these houses there is an ephod, and theraphim, and a graven, and a molten god: see what you are pleased to do. [15] And when they had turned a little aside, they went into the house of the young man the Levite, who was in the house of Michas: and they saluted him with words of peace.

    [16] And the six hundred men stood before the door, appointed with their arms. [17] But they that were gone into the house of the young man, went about to take away the graven god, and the ephod, and the theraphim, and the molten god, and the priest stood before the door, the six hundred valiant men waiting not far off. [18] So they that were gone in took away the graven thing, the ephod, and the idols, and the molten god. And the priest said to them: What are you doing? [19] And they said to him: Hold thy peace and put thy finger on thy mouth and come with us, that we may have thee for a father, and a priest. Whether is better for thee, to be a priest in the house of one man, or in a tribe and family in Israel? [20] When he had heard this, he agreed to their words, and took the ephod, and the idols, and the graven god, and departed with them.

    [21] And when they were going forward, and had put before them the children and the cattle and all that was valuable, [22] And were now at a distance from the house of Michas, the men that dwelt in the houses of Michas gathering together followed them, [23] And began to shout out after them. They looked back, and said to Michas: What aileth thee? Why dost thou cry? [24] And he answered: You have taken away my gods which I have made me and the priest, and all that I have, and do you say: What aileth thee? [25] And the children of Dan said to him: See thou say no more to us, lest men enraged come upon thee, and thou perish with all thy house.

    [26] And so they went on the journey they had begun. But Michas seeing that they were stronger than he, returned to his house. [27] And the six hundred men took the priest, and the things we spoke of before, and came to Lais to a people that was quiet and secure, and smote them with the edge of the sword: and the city was burnt with fire, [28] There being no man at all who brought them any succour, because they dwelt far from Sidon, and had no society or business with any man. And the city was in the land of Rohob: and they rebuilt it and dwelt therein. [29] Calling the name of the city Dan after the name of their father, who was the son of Israel, which before was called Lais. [30] And they set up to themselves the graven idol, and Jonathan the son of Gersam the son of Moses, he and his sons were priests in the tribe of Dan, until the day of their captivity.

    [31] And the idol of Michas remained with them all the time that the house of God was in Silo. In those days there was no king in Israel.
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    Offline Sir Percival

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      • Pope Urban II - Crusades
    Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #14 on: May 18, 2022, 07:19:13 PM »
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  • The Conciliar Popes are promulgators of a new religion which may be referred to as the Vatican II sect. Those who belong to this false Freemasonic cult of man cannot be united with those who believe and practice the Roman Catholic Faith. Therefore the FSSP & other former Ecclesia Dei groups cannot be reconciled with the SSPX or the Resistance as they operate from two radically opposed and mutually exclusive principles.

    As the SSPX leadership and Archbishop Lefebvre said: “To be publicly associated with the sanction [of excommunication] would be a mark of honour and a sign of orthodoxy before the faithful, who have a strict right to know that the priests they approach are not in communion with a counterfeit Church…” (Open Letter to Cardinal Gantin, July 6, 1988, signed by 24 SSPX superiors).
    “How can the ignorant teach others? How can the licentious make others modest? And how can the impure make others pure? If anyone hates peace, how can he make others peaceable ? Or if anyone has soiled his hands with baseness, how can he cleanse the impurities of another? We read also that if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch [Matt. 15:14]. But first correct yourselves, in order that, free from blame , you may be able to correct those who are subject to you.”

    Pope Urban II