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Offline stevusmagnus

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Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
« on: December 22, 2010, 07:25:17 PM »
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  • Those who converted to Sede-dom over this can come back now. False alarm...again.

    http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2010-1225-mjm-cdf.htm

    At press time this week we received word that the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has issued an official clarification of Pope Benedict’s recent comments regarding prophylactics. The clarification is not only as official as it gets but it was also released in five languages, suggesting that with some urgency the Vatican means to put the world on notice that the Holy Father has in no sense changed, altered or updated Church teaching on the immorality of condom use.

    Readers will forgive me for allowing this clarification to preempt my usual Christmas column. It seems to me that we’ve all endured enough scandal at the hands of our shepherds of late, and I think perhaps a little good news is in order.

    Roman Pontiffs can and do make prudential errors; and Pope Benedict's interview with Peter Seewald was in our opinion a serious mistake. Nevertheless, it is unseemly for tradition-minded Catholics to appear to revel in such papal missteps, or to join in with the secularist mob that is attempting to spin every word the Holy Father utters into a victory for the dark side. There are important aspects of the Holy Father’s thinking with which traditional Catholics can respectfully disagree, but let us not let those disagreements cause us to lose sight of the fact that wolves are circling the Vatican and that the servant girl is again grilling Peter in the courtyard, even as the Mystical Body of Christ is being led in chains through the streets of the world.

    The powers of hell have obviously gathered themselves against the Catholic Church in the modern world, and we’ve never claimed that the diabolical disorientation that is the hallmark of our age could never reach as high as the Chair of Peter. Pray for him. Pray for your children. Pray for us all. I know I’m not the only one to sense that 2011 could bring tribulation and persecution to Christians once considered unthinkable in this country.

    Christmas is a time for hope, however, and I’m certainly not giving ground to despair. But a healthy awareness of where we stand is essential. The situation in the world today seems to closely mirror that in which the first Christmas took place. The conservatives, the liberals, the heretics, the apostates, the globalists, the baby killers—they're all still here. And these days only the lowly seem disposed to recognize Christ as King.

    Two thousand and ten years later not much has changed. But soon after the Light had come into the darkness, the unthinkable happened: The mighty Roman Empire became the Holy Roman Empire. Who knows if we’ll live to see something like that happen again, but God is asking us to follow the star for some reason. What is history if not the written account of all those who even in the darkest nights in human history still managed to raise their eyes to the heavens with hopeful expectation. Are we up to it?

    Even today, when all the world seems to stand against the followers of Christ, can we keep faithful watch over our little sheep until that star begins to rise? I think we can. I think we already are. Perseverance is the challenge. So let us go over to Bethlehem, and let us see this word that is come to pass, which the Lord hath shewed to us. Keep the Faith!

    Merry Christmas, and Pray for the Holy Father.

    Note of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

    On the trivialization of sexuality

    Regarding certain interpretations of "Light of the World"

    Following the publication of the interview-book Light of the World by Benedict XVI, a number of erroneous interpretations have emerged which have caused confusion concerning the position of the Catholic Church regarding certain questions of sexual morality. The thought of the Pope has been repeatedly manipulated for ends and interests which are entirely foreign to the meaning of his words – a meaning which is evident to anyone who reads the entire chapters in which human sexuality is treated. The intention of the Holy Father is clear: to rediscover the beauty of the divine gift of human sexuality and, in this way, to avoid the cheapening of sexuality which is common today.

    Some interpretations have presented the words of the Pope as a contradiction of the traditional moral teaching of the Church. This hypothesis has been welcomed by some as a positive change and lamented by others as a cause of concern – as if his statements represented a break with the doctrine concerning contraception and with the Church’s stance in the fight against AIDS. In reality, the words of the Pope – which specifically concern a gravely disordered type of human behaviour, namely prostitution (cf. Light of the World, pp. 117-119) – do not signify a change in Catholic moral teaching or in the pastoral practice of the Church.

    As is clear from an attentive reading of the pages in question, the Holy Father was talking neither about conjugal morality nor about the moral norm concerning contraception. This norm belongs to the tradition of the Church and was summarized succinctly by Pope Paul VI in paragraph 14 of his Encyclical Letter Humanae vitae, when he wrote that "also to be excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means." The idea that anyone could deduce from the words of Benedict XVI that it is somehow legitimate, in certain situations, to use condoms to avoid an unwanted pregnancy is completely arbitrary and is in no way justified either by his words or in his thought. On this issue the Pope proposes instead – and also calls the pastors of the Church to propose more often and more effectively (cf. Light of the World, p. 147) – humanly and ethically acceptable ways of behaving which respect the inseparable connection between the unitive and procreative meaning of every conjugal act, through the possible use of natural family planning in view of responsible procreation.

    On the pages in question, the Holy Father refers to the completely different case of prostitution, a type of behaviour which Christian morality has always considered gravely immoral (cf. Vatican II, Pastoral Constitution Gaudium et spes, n. 27; Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 2355). The response of the entire Christian tradition – and indeed not only of the Christian tradition – to the practice of prostitution can be summed up in the words of St. Paul: "Flee from fornication" (1 Cor 6:18). The practice of prostitution should be shunned, and it is the duty of the agencies of the Church, of civil society and of the State to do all they can to liberate those involved from this practice.

    In this regard, it must be noted that the situation created by the spread of AIDS in many areas of the world has made the problem of prostitution even more serious. Those who know themselves to be infected with HIV and who therefore run the risk of infecting others, apart from committing a sin against the sixth commandment are also committing a sin against the fifth commandment – because they are consciously putting the lives of others at risk through behaviour which has repercussions on public health. In this situation, the Holy Father clearly affirms that the provision of condoms does not constitute "the real or moral solution" to the problem of AIDS and also that "the sheer fixation on the condom implies a banalization of sexuality" in that it refuses to address the mistaken human behaviour which is the root cause of the spread of the virus. In this context, however, it cannot be denied that anyone who uses a condom in order to diminish the risk posed to another person is intending to reduce the evil connected with his or her immoral activity. In this sense the Holy Father points out that the use of a condom "with the intention of reducing the risk of infection, can be a first step in a movement towards a different way, a more human way, of living sexuality." This affirmation is clearly compatible with the Holy Father’s previous statement that this is "not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV infection."

    Some commentators have interpreted the words of Benedict XVI according to the so-called theory of the "lesser evil". This theory is, however, susceptible to proportionalistic misinterpretation (cf. John Paul II, Encyclical Letter Veritatis splendor, n. 75-77). An action which is objectively evil, even if a lesser evil, can never be licitly willed. The Holy Father did not say – as some people have claimed – that prostitution with the use of a condom can be chosen as a lesser evil. The Church teaches that prostitution is immoral and should be shunned. However, those involved in prostitution who are HIV positive and who seek to diminish the risk of contagion by the use of a condom may be taking the first step in respecting the life of another – even if the evil of prostitution remains in all its gravity. This understanding is in full conformity with the moral theological tradition of the Church.

    In conclusion, in the battle against AIDS, the Catholic faithful and the agencies of the Catholic Church should be close to those affected, should care for the sick and should encourage all people to live abstinence before and fidelity within marriage. In this regard it is also important to condemn any behaviour which cheapens sexuality because, as the Pope says, such behaviour is the reason why so many people no longer see in sexuality an expression of their love: "This is why the fight against the banalization of sexuality is also part of the struggle to ensure that sexuality is treated as a positive value and to enable it to have a positive effect on the whole of man’s being" (Light of the World, p. 119).

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #1 on: December 22, 2010, 07:41:18 PM »
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  • Dignitatis Humanae said it didn't change Catholic teaching either. It said it left the Catholic teaching "unchanged."

    Saying you're not changing something when suddenly the world approves of your new position that will be used to justify the distribution of condoms is simply dishonest.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #2 on: December 22, 2010, 07:49:40 PM »
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  • A Catholic state could have legal prostitution but it could not have legal condoms.  Because condoms promote unnatural vice.

    Quote
    I answer that, Human government is derived from the Divine government, and should imitate it. Now although God is all-powerful and supremely good, nevertheless He allows certain evils to take place in the universe, which He might prevent, lest, without them, greater goods might be forfeited, or greater evils ensue. Accordingly in human government also, those who are in authority, rightly tolerate certain evils, lest certain goods be lost, or certain greater evils be incurred: thus Augustine says (De Ordine ii, 4): "If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust." Hence, though unbelievers sin in their rites, they may be tolerated, either on account of some good that ensues therefrom, or because of some evil avoided. Thus from the fact that the Jews observe their rites, which, of old, foreshadowed the truth of the faith which we hold, there follows this good--that our very enemies bear witness to our faith, and that our faith is represented in a figure, so to speak. For this reason they are tolerated in the observance of their rites.


    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3010.htm

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #3 on: December 22, 2010, 10:44:25 PM »
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  • So a Catholic state should legalize prostitution or else its citizens will be overcome with lust? Prostitution cures and/or diminishes lust? Catholic teaching would say it increases lust rather than decreases it.

    I'd like to see the context of the quote by St. Augustine. Of course maybe on another thread since this is a side issue.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #4 on: December 22, 2010, 10:57:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    So a Catholic state should legalize prostitution


    Don't mischaracterize.

    It could tolerate prostitution far sooner than it could tolerate the distribution of condoms.

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    or else its citizens will be overcome with lust?


    Yes, with unnatural lusts, which are far worse.

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    Prostitution cures and/or diminishes lust? Catholic teaching would say it increases lust rather than decreases it.

    I'd like to see the context of the quote by St. Augustine. Of course maybe on another thread since this is a side issue.


    You're claiming St. Thomas took it out of context?


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #5 on: December 23, 2010, 07:35:30 AM »
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  • I'm saying that St. Thoma may be using the quote with a certain understanding that would be clearer if we had the context.

    A Catholic state "tolerating" prostitution by legalizing it to avoid a "greater evil" is absurd. No greater evil would be avoided unless you believe prostitution prevents greater sins which is insane.

    Your newfound hatred of the Pope has lead you to new heights of insanity.

    Offline Arborman

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #6 on: December 23, 2010, 08:11:21 AM »
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  • Didn't the Church allow prostitution to flourish in Rome and throughout the Catholic world?   They have often tolerated it to prevent a greater evil.  Just asking.
    To Jesus thru Mary, for the greater glory of God.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #7 on: December 23, 2010, 08:24:01 AM »
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  • The Church has always condemned prostitution as a moral evil. I'm not aware of the Church ever advising a Catholic state to legalize prostitution.

    What greater evil can the toleration of prostitution possibly prevent?


    Offline Arborman

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #8 on: December 23, 2010, 08:29:28 AM »
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  • http://home.comcast.net/~mikibu/Articlefolder/prostitution.htm

    Prostitution in medieval Europe was influenced by the views of the early Christian church. It was seen as a necessary evil, and therefore tolerated, although Church officials condemned the practice and encouraged women to give up the trade.[24] The lowest class prostitutes of the Byzantine Empire were in brothels peopled with girls from the countryside who had been sold by their parents in time of economic need.[25] In early Germanic societies, voluntary prostitution was a crime against the male relatives of the prostitute and was severely punished, but the sexual exploitation of female slaves was practiced.[26] Prostitution increased with urbanization, and the lowest class of prostitutes were serfs who fled to the cities.[27] They made up the ranks of camp followers who plied their trade at military garrisons and followed the armies in the field. Prostitutes were required to wear distinguishing dress, and there was concern about public soliciting. As urbanization increased, prostitutes began to cluster in certain areas of the cities, especially near universities and around the public baths or "stews." As in modern times, "public women" [28] were identified with venereal disease. Pimping was illegal in most places, probably in an attempt to control the street crime which was associated with it,[29] although stories of mothers selling their daughters into prostitution abound.[30]

       By the Renaissance, regulation of prostitution existed throughout Europe. Wages, rents, hours, and health examinations were all controlled by the various governments.[31] Fear of syphilis, at that time as deadly a disease as AIDS is today, led to the closing of the stews and the removal of most prostitutes to brothels.  Unfortunately, those women who were evicted from the brothels due to disease were left with no choice but to ply their trade in the streets.[32] In some areas, prostitution was outlawed entirely, but strict regulation and some efforts at reforming prostitutes were the norm.[33] None of these measures succeeded in reducing prostitution, and in 1490 the official register recorded 7000 prostitutes in Rome and over 11,000 in Venice.[34] Since street prostitutes were not registered, these
    To Jesus thru Mary, for the greater glory of God.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #9 on: December 23, 2010, 08:32:54 AM »
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  • No idea what the accuracy of your article is.

    Nevertheless, it never says why prostitution was a "necessary" evil.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #10 on: December 23, 2010, 08:39:23 AM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Dignitatis Humanae said it didn't change Catholic teaching either. It said it left the Catholic teaching "unchanged."

    Saying you're not changing something when suddenly the world approves of your new position that will be used to justify the distribution of condoms is simply dishonest.


    Dignitatis Humanae did not change Catholic teaching. Catholic teaching cannot change.

    "The world" can approve of some ficticious "new position" all they want to, to justify whatever they want to. They always have and always will. This doesn't change the fact that the Pope, objectively, changed nothing.


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #11 on: December 23, 2010, 08:40:56 AM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    A Catholic state could have legal prostitution but it could not have legal condoms.  Because condoms promote unnatural vice.


    Besides the interesting side question this post poses regarding the Aquinas quote, it is completely irrelevant. The Pope never called for the legalization of prostitution or condoms.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #12 on: December 23, 2010, 09:11:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus

    Dignitatis Humanae did not change Catholic teaching. Catholic teaching cannot change.


    Only if you consider it to be invalid magisterium.  Either religious liberty is "insanity" or it is a right.  Either the Church was right to oppose heresy or it was trampling on rights.

    Quote
    "The world" can approve of some ficticious "new position" all they want to, to justify whatever they want to.


    Just as Dignitatis Humanae was used to eliminate the Catholic state, the Pope's statement will be used as justification for the distribution of condoms and corrupt sex education.  Real Catholic defended the Catholic state and opposed the distribution of condoms.  False Catholics have destroyed the Catholic state and will approve of the distribution and education regarding condoms because of this statement.  False Catholics will start arguing unnatural acts outside of marriage are better than natural acts outside of marriage, when all Catholics must hold the opposite position.

    Quote
    They always have and always will. This doesn't change the fact that the Pope, objectively, changed nothing.


    The Pope nearly a year ago said "condoms make the problem worse" - no he says that "they are a first step to moralisation."

    It's as impossible to reconcile those two statements as it is to reconcile Quanta Cura and Dignitatis Humanae.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #13 on: December 23, 2010, 10:01:33 AM »
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  • What is an "invalid" Magisterium? I love how you invent and use new undefined terms to avoid being nailed down. Just like the Modernists. VCII was a pastoral non-infallible Council and changed nothing. Even so, BXVI nowhere claimed to overturn Traditional Catholic teaching in his statement, nor did he as the CDF makes clear.

    True Catholics have always upheld the faith while heretics have worked against it. Nothing new there.

    Surely you are capable of understanding the Pope's two comments. There is absolutely no contradiction in saying that condoms are not the answer to the AIDS crisis and at the same time recognizing that an HIV infected prostitute might interiorly show some semblance of concern for another person by wishing to protect them from a life-threatening disease.

    Only someone with a pre-conceived agenda to discredit the Pope would feign to see such an obvious point.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #14 on: December 23, 2010, 10:28:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    What is an "invalid" Magisterium?


    It means not valid.  Not something that can be followed.  Whatever it is, it's not right.

    Quote
    I love how you invent and use new undefined terms to avoid being nailed down. Just like the Modernists.


    Nonsense.

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    VCII was a pastoral non-infallible Council and changed nothing.


    It changed nothing of true Catholic doctrine because Catholic doctrine is unchanging, but as far as the working of the Church goes, it changed everything.

     
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    Even so, BXVI nowhere claimed to overturn Traditional Catholic teaching in his statement,


    Except he stabbed the faithful Catholics in the back.

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    nor did he as the CDF makes clear.


    He can't change it, but what the CDF says is nonsense.

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    True Catholics have always upheld the faith while heretics have worked against it. Nothing new there.

    Surely you are capable of understanding the Pope's two comments. There is absolutely no contradiction in saying that condoms are not the answer to the AIDS crisis


    He first said they make it worse.  Now he says they're a first step to morality.  They can't be both.

    Quote
    and at the same time recognizing that an HIV infected prostitute might interiorly show some semblance of concern for another person by wishing to protect them from a life-threatening disease.

    Only someone with a pre-conceived agenda to discredit the Pope would feign to see such an obvious point.


    Pffft.  Only someone with a preconceived agenda to defend the Pope no matter what he says would try to defend his infamous remarks that make a mockery of what Catholics have always believed, that make a mockery of Catholic opposition to the promotion of those devices, that make a mockery of the Papacy.


     

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