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Author Topic: Vatican Insider agrees with Sedevacantists Conservatives  (Read 12834 times)

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Offline drew

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Vatican Insider agrees with Sedevacantists Conservatives
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2017, 07:13:27 AM »
P.S.  For sedevacantists, it is as you say, "the pope is the unity of faith."  Now you have no pope and no hope of ever having one, you have no "unity of faith."

Drew

Offline Pax Vobis

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Vatican Insider agrees with Sedevacantists Conservatives
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2017, 09:27:47 AM »
Quote
The pope is not the cause of Dogma.  He is the necessary but insufficient means by which Dogma is revealed.  Dogma is the revelation of God.

Let me try to re-frame this discussion in another way.  Let us all remember this obvious, but in our day and age, corrupted truth.  There are not, nor will there ever be, NEW catholic truths.  Christ revealed everything that we must believe to save our souls.  The Catholic Faith is unchanging, fixed, immovable.

I bring this up because oftentimes when the pope/dogma is discussed, people incorrectly imply that the pope is of some necessity when it comes to keeping the Faith.  Practically, he is not necessary to keep the faith or save your soul!  You can pick up a good catechism and learn ALL that you need to save your soul.  The pope is a blessing, in that his job is to DEFEND the truth, or CLARIFY dogma, or RE-TEACH that which has been infected with error.  It is a blessing, because many popes don't use this power, or they use it unwisely, so when a good pope fulfills his office, then the Church has good days.  If he fails to defend, clarify or teach the truth, the Church has not failed, she simply has a leader that is poor at his job.  But, in all these things, as the bible says "there's nothing new under the sun".  The pope does NOT have the power to CREATE any new truths, as many imply by their over-emphasis on his importance.

However, the pope is important for the governance of the temporal affairs of the Church.  Without a head, the organization would implode.  He is, of course, very important for the spiritual aspect as well, but history shows that God gives bad leaders as a punishment for sin, so we can't expect for a holy pope to guide us to heaven.  At the end of the day, WE have to KNOW our faith, live it and teach it to others.  We can't, and shouldn't, rely on a pope to get us to heaven.  This is spiritual immaturity and irresponsibility.  This is not how it works.

This is why, practically speaking, the question of who is/isn't the pope is pointless. Sedevacantists aren't disturbed by a vacant chair because they know they must hold onto the faith regardless and that God will fix the situation.  They say: "The pope has lost his office because he hasn't followed the Faith.  I must continue to follow the faith to save my soul."  

Non-sedevacantists have the same logic.  They see a bad pope and realize he's a danger and that eventually, God will fix the situation.  They say: "The pope is to be ignored because he hasn't followed the Faith.  I must continue to follow the faith to save my soul."

The outcome is the same - follow the Faith, to save your soul.  I don't see the point in fighting over inconsequential details.


Offline drew

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Vatican Insider agrees with Sedevacantists Conservatives
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2017, 07:21:53 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis
Quote
The pope is not the cause of Dogma.  He is the necessary but insufficient means by which Dogma is revealed.  Dogma is the revelation of God.

Let me try to re-frame this discussion in another way.  Let us all remember this obvious, but in our day and age, corrupted truth.  There are not, nor will there ever be, NEW catholic truths.  Christ revealed everything that we must believe to save our souls.  The Catholic Faith is unchanging, fixed, immovable.
[.....]
This is why, practically speaking, the question of who is/isn't the pope is pointless. Sedevacantists aren't disturbed by a vacant chair because they know they must hold onto the faith regardless and that God will fix the situation.  They say: "The pope has lost his office because he hasn't followed the Faith.  I must continue to follow the faith to save my soul."  

Non-sedevacantists have the same logic.  They see a bad pope and realize he's a danger and that eventually, God will fix the situation.  They say: "The pope is to be ignored because he hasn't followed the Faith.  I must continue to follow the faith to save my soul."

The outcome is the same - follow the Faith, to save your soul.  I don't see the point in fighting over inconsequential details.

The subject of this thread concerns what constitutes the "rule of faith."  You cannot just "follow the Faith" if you do not know what the "rule of faith" is.  And that is why you cannot simply examine the problem from a "practical" perspective because the theoretical first principles will in the end determine the practical course taken.

The Vatican Insider article is an exposition of the doctrine that the pope is the "rule of faith."  This false doctrine has been taken as normative since the 1949 Holy Office Letter that censored Fr. Feeney whereby Dogma as the rule of faith was "formally" replaced with the "pope as the rule of faith."  This false doctrine is held by conservative Catholics, all sedevacantists (except Br. Michael Dimond), and those priests and religious formed by the SSPX.  It explains why they believe and do the things they do.    

The article was posted so that those who hold this doctrine may better see its implications when it is used to overthrow the sacraments of marriage and penance leading to sacrilegious communions.  Maybe they will begin to trace it back to the overthrowing of the Dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

Drew

Offline Pax Vobis

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Vatican Insider agrees with Sedevacantists Conservatives
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2017, 11:40:04 AM »
Quote
The problem is this is directly condemned by Pope Pius IX as being opposed to the Dogma “of the full power given from God by Christ our Lord Himself to the Roman Pontiff of feeding, ruling and guiding the Universal Church.” The “bad pope” people deny that the Pope has the authority to rule the rest of the Church in all things, not just when they use infallibility.

The pope's authority to rule the church pertains to his temporal power over the governance of the church and over spiritual matters (ONLY when he speaks infallibly).  The 'feeding, ruling and guiding' which Pius IX speaks of, is directly related to the use of his infallibility.  Again, the pope's job is to re-teach, re-clarify, re-proclaim that which has already been taught by Christ and the Apostles.  When the pope uses this power officially, he is using his infallibility.  If he uses it unofficially, he is teaching as a mere man, in which case he can teach good things and write good things if he is holy and trained properly, but ....he can also err either accidentally or for evil intents.


Offline drew

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Vatican Insider agrees with Sedevacantists Conservatives
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2017, 04:49:43 PM »
Quote from: GJC
Quote from: drew
The subject of this thread concerns what constitutes the "rule of faith."  You cannot just "follow the Faith" if you do not know what the "rule of faith" is.


You said it. How can you claim to have any faith at all when you don't even recognize a heretic/apostate that your in line with?

How will you answer the most Just Judge when asked: Have you not read the scriptures; blind followers of blind leaders will both go into the pit (hell)?

You can try to justify yourself all you like with your "rule of faith" argument, but you can never escape the fact you are united to the Novus Ordo as the article accuses the sedevacantist of.

For the record, I printed a copy of the 1949 letter, borrowed a lighter, and burned it.....


Burned the 1949 Holy Office Letter censoring Fr. Feeney?  Well that is not the typical response from anyone who holds the pope as the rule of faith.  So if you do not hold the pope as the rule of faith, you then must hold Dogma as the rule of faith for what is left is the Protestant option which holds that each individual believer is his own rule of faith.  

So how is it that a Catholic becomes associated with the heresy of each of the conciliar popes by recognizing their papacy if they keep Dogma as the rule of faith?  "Have you not read the scriptures"?  Was Jesus Christ tainted by the sin of Caiaphas the heretic by acknowledging him as the high priest and worshiping at the temple?  

The laws that remove a heretic pope from office are not, as has been claimed by others, "Divine law."  They are human law with all the problems entailed in applying human laws in individual cases.

Nearly every sedevacantist holds the pope as the rule of faith.  That is why they are obligated to usurp the authority of enforcing the penalties of human law and remove him from office or else they would have to obey him like the conservative conciliar Catholics have done.  But the sedevacantists in so doing end up in a church that does not and can never have a pope which is a necessary attribute of the Church Jesus Christ founded.  It is a clear and unmistakable sign that the church they belong to in not the Catholic Church.

Fr. Feeney was censored in the 1949 Holy Office Letter for defending the literal meaning of the Dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church.  He was censored for holding Dogma as the rule of faith.  

This is something that every sedevacantist needs to reflect upon.  

Drew