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Offline exleftist

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Vatican II
« on: May 08, 2017, 07:06:56 PM »
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  • I have a couple questions here. Firstly, I am reading and I am seeing that if one rejects Vatican II he is not Catholic. Is this true? I don't know where the line is drawn between rejecting a false teaching by individuals and rejecting the Church as a whole. Secondly, what about Vatican II itself is at issue? The little I've read of it thus far kind of looks vague and fluffy.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm


    Offline exleftist

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    Re: Vatican II
    « Reply #1 on: May 08, 2017, 08:41:48 PM »
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  • Unfortunately I cannot edit my posts. I am wondering about Sedevacantism. Can one stay in communion with Rome if one attends such a church? This is increasingly confusing for me.


    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Re: Vatican II
    « Reply #2 on: May 08, 2017, 09:30:43 PM »
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  • Hello, Exleftist, and welcome to the forum! 

    Here is a good listing of errors of Vatican II: 

    http://www.catholictreasures.com/articles/25errors.html

    Also, about your question of sedevacantism and being in communion with Rome, indeed a Catholic can do so. I say this, and I am not actually a sedevacantist. 
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Vatican II
    « Reply #3 on: May 08, 2017, 09:52:28 PM »
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  • Unfortunately I cannot edit my posts. I am wondering about Sedevacantism. Can one stay in communion with Rome if one attends such a church? This is increasingly confusing for me.
    To edit you click Modify in the top right corner.
    I can well imagine how confusing it is. (or can I - being a cradle Catholic of 71 years)
    If a sedevacantist chapel is the only one close enough for you to attend then you could still "stay in communion with Rome if one attends such a church". The Holy Mass would still be the Holy Mass. Sedevacantists (I am not one) are still Catholic. When I was in Italy, I attended a sedevacantist chapel whenever it was possible. Don Francesco Ricossa was the priest. Brilliant and holy priest!
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Vatican II
    « Reply #4 on: May 08, 2017, 10:06:07 PM »
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  • I have a couple questions here. Firstly, I am reading and I am seeing that if one rejects Vatican II he is not Catholic. Is this true? I don't know where the line is drawn between rejecting a false teaching by individuals and rejecting the Church as a whole. Secondly, what about Vatican II itself is at issue? The little I've read of it thus far kind of looks vague and fluffy.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm
    I reject Vatican II and am still Catholic.

    A good non-vague and non-fluffy book is I Accuse the Council by Mons Marcel Lefebvre.

    For the history of the Council,  The Rhine Flows into the Tiber: A History of Vatican II by  (apparently renamed The Inside Story of Vatican II).


    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline exleftist

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    Re: Vatican II
    « Reply #5 on: May 08, 2017, 10:06:57 PM »
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  • I had a modify button a couple days ago but it's since vanished on all my posts regardless of how old they are. I also cannot up or down vote a post. 

    About Sedevacantism, I've seen nothing about how those who belong to this movement maintain communion with Rome. At Catholic Answers, it's explicitly denied as a schismatic movement.

    It's all very confusing to me. In history when there were events of papal corruption, how were these people's false teachings removed if it is obligatory to follow them? 

    Offline exleftist

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    Re: Vatican II
    « Reply #6 on: May 08, 2017, 10:23:39 PM »
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  • I see. A modify button is there but for only a short time so I could not edit my above post. 

    I've not seen a single mainstream non-Sedevacantist source that accepts Sedevacantism within the Church. Catholic Answers condemns it in toto as does every other Novus Ordo/mainstream source I have seen. I've even seen some threats of hell along with the remarks about schism.

    As far as official word from Rome, I haven't yet looked into that. 

    I went to a local Catholic book store today, and it was 100% Novus Ordum with the exception of a 1962 Missal for $75. There were two books I picked up by Father John Hardon, but they both have a publish date of 2000. 

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Vatican II
    « Reply #7 on: May 08, 2017, 10:30:40 PM »
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  • Ahhh! The Modify only remains for a set period, say 3 mins, which would give you the time to double check what you wrote, then the cement dries and you're stuck! So if you want to say something else you just click reply and start again.

    You "maintain communion with Rome" by sticking by the teachings that have been handed down to us through the years by all the popes. That is why Vatican II is such a devastating occurrence: because it did not keep to the milleniums long teachings of the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Faith. That is why we are all floudering, some even despairing, today and it is so difficult for a person like yourself who comes fresh into the Church. Prayer is very important.

    I'm not too knowledgeable about Catholic Answers but I see that they don't have a good reputation around these parts.


    I just read your post above. No newchurch organisation is going to accept the concept of sedevacantism because sedevacantism is chiefly based of the rejection of Vatican II and those popes who have taken up Vatican II and run with it. It may come clearer as you read the work of Mons Lefebvre (not that he was a sedevacantist).
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Vatican II
    « Reply #8 on: May 08, 2017, 11:09:52 PM »
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  • I have a couple questions here. Firstly, I am reading and I am seeing that if one rejects Vatican II he is not Catholic. Is this true? I don't know where the line is drawn between rejecting a false teaching by individuals and rejecting the Church as a whole. Secondly, what about Vatican II itself is at issue? The little I've read of it thus far kind of looks vague and fluffy.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm

    It's exactly the opposite.

    If ones accepts Vatican II, he's not Catholic.

    Because the theology of the Council contradicts Church teachings and is not Catholic.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline exleftist

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    Re: Vatican II
    « Reply #9 on: May 08, 2017, 11:36:55 PM »
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  • It's exactly the opposite.

    If ones accepts Vatican II, he's not Catholic.

    Because the theology of the Council contradicts Church teachings and is not Catholic.
    Then if that were the case, it looks like to me you're basically saying Satan prevailed against the gates of the Church.

    That would mean that 1 billion people are suddenly not Catholic.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Vatican II
    « Reply #10 on: May 09, 2017, 01:36:11 AM »
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  • Then if that were the case, it looks like to me you're basically saying Satan prevailed against the gates of the Church.

    That would mean that 1 billion people are suddenly not Catholic.
    It appears that way, for he has certainly prevailed against the pope and the hierarchy and all the followers of the Vatican II church who have abandoned LIVING the Faith to follow teachers according to their own desires (teachers that tell them what they want to hear). However, Christ never promised that the visible buildings and hierarchy and all who call themselves Catholics would prevail over Satan.

    There are over 1 billion baptized Catholics in the world, however, for instance in "Catholic" France, Italy Spain less than 5% of baptized Catholics go to mass, and practically all go to the Novus Ordo mass, a service which mirrors our own desires. There really are very few Catholics who LIVE the faith, for practically all the 1 billion it is a cultural identity and that is as far as it goes. I doubt that more than 1% of Catholics live the faith. Reflect on the posting below and tell me how many so-called Catholics today will be saved?

    The Church which  Satan will not prevail against are the few Catholics who live the Faith, it is the Holy Catholic Church that you pray for in the canon of the mass.

    "But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?" Luke 18-8

    "For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect." Mat 24-24 

    THE TEACHINGS OF THE FATHERS, DOCTORS AND SAINTS OF T CHURCH UPON THE FINAL DESTINY OF MOST PEOPLE.
     
    1) Notwithstanding assurances that God did not create any man for Hell, and that He wishes all men to be saved, it remains equally true that few will be saved; that only few will go to Heaven; and that the greater part of mankind will be lost forever. (St. John Neuman)
     
    2) It is certain that few are saved. (St. Augustine)
     
    3) The majority of men shall not see God. (St. Julian the Martyr)
     
    4) Those who are saved are in the minority. ( St. Thomas Aquinas)
     
    5) The greater part of men choose to be damned rather than to love almighty God. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)
     
    6) So vast a number of miserable souls perish, and so comparatively few are saved. (St. Philip Neri)
     
    7) Among adults there are few saved because of the sins of the flesh....With exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned. (St. Remigius of Rheims)
     
    8) Death bed conversions/repentance-there are hardly any: Out of 100,000 sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely ONE will be saved. (St. Jerome)
     
    9) The MAJORITY OF CATHOLICS GO TO HELL:
     
    a) The greater number of Christians today are damned. The destiny of those dying on one day is that very few  -  not as many as ten  -   went straight to Heaven; many remained in Purgatory; and THOSE CAST INTO HELL WERE NUMEROUS AS SNOWFLAKES in mid-winter. (Bl. Anna Maria Taigi)
     
    b) There are many who arrive at the faith, but few who are led to the heavenly kingdom. Behold how many are gathered here for today's Feast-Day; we fill the church from wall to wall. Yet who knows how FEW they are who shall be numbered in that chosen company of the elect? (Pope St. Gregory the Great)
     
    c) The Ark, which in the midst of the Flood was the symbol of the Church, was wide below and narrow above, .... It was wide where the animals were, narrow where men lived; for the Holy Church is indeed wide in number of those who are carnal minded, narrow in the number of those who are spiritual.
    ( Pope St. Gregory the Great)
     
    d) Shall we all be saved? Shall we go to heaven? Alas, my children we do not know at all! But I tremble when I see so many souls lost these days. See, they fall into Hell as leaves fall from the trees at the approach of winter. (St. John Vianney)
     
    10) MOST PRIESTS GO TO HELL:
     
    St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople, Doctor of the Church:
     
    I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think., I do not think that many priests are saved but that those that perish are far more numerous. The reason is that the office requires a great soul. For there are many things to make a priest swerve from rectitude, and he requires great vigilance on every side. Do you not perceive how many qualities a bishop must have that he may be apt to teach; patient towards the wicked, firm and faithful in teaching the Word? How many difficulties herein.
     
    Moreover the loss of others is imputed to him. I need say no more. If but one dies without baptism, does it not entirely endanger his salvation? For the loss of one soul is so great an evil as no man can understand. If the salvation of one soul is of such importance that, for its sake, the Son of God became man and suffered so much, think of the penalty the loss of one soul will entail. (Third Homily, Acts of the Apostles)
     
    b) Many religious go to Hell because they do not keep their vows. (St. Vincent Ferrer)
     
     
    CATHOLICS NOT ASPIRING AND NOT LIVING AS SAINTS WILL GO TO HELL:
     
    a) They who are enlightened to walk in the way of perfection, and through lukewarmness wish to tread the ordinary paths, shall be abandoned. (Bl. Angela of Foligno)
     
    b) They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)
     
    c) St. Teresa.... had she not risen from the state of lukewarmness in which she lived, she would in the end have lost the grace of God and been damned. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)
     
    14) How many inhabitants of this city may perhaps be saved? What I am about to say is very terrible, yet I will not conceal it from you. Out of this thickly populated city with it's thousands of inhabitants, not 100 people will be saved. I even doubt whether there will be as many as that! ( St. John Chrysostom - the city was Antioch and its inhabitants were known to be in pursuit of comfort and the good things of things life.)
     
    15) A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell. (St. Anthony Mary Claret - It has been revealed that on the day of the death of St. Bernard there also died 79,997 other people, and of this total of 80,000 who died, only St. Bernard and two other monks were saved.
     
    16) In the great deluge in the days of Noah, all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark. In our days a deluge, not of water, but sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)
     
    17) Yes indeed, many will be damned; few will be saved. (St. Benedict Joseph Labro)
     
    18) If you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it. ( St. John Vianney)
     
    19) He who goes to Hell, goes of his own accord. Everyone who is damned, is damned because he wills his own damnation. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)
     
    20) THOSE WHO HAVE HEARD NOTHING ABOUT THE FAITH CAN ALSO GO TO HELL:
     
    a) When such unbelievers are damned, it is on account of other sins, which cannot be taken away without the faith, but not because of their sin of unbelief. (St. Thomas Aquinas)
     
    b) Everyone that is of truth hears my voice. (St. John 18:37)
     
    c) It may be true that there are, in the remotest parts of the world, some people who have not yet seen the light of the Savior. Certainly, God's manifold and ineffable goodness has always provided, and still provides, for all mankind in such a way that not one of the reprobates can find an excuse as though he had been refused the light of truth. ( St. Prosper of Aquitaine)
     
    d) No one is lost without knowing it, and no one is deceived without wanting to be. (St. Teresa of Avila)
     
    21) OUTSIDE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THERE IS NO SALVATION:
     
    a) No matter how praiseworthy his actions might seem, he who is separated from the Catholic Church will never enjoy eternal life (Pope Gregory XVI)
     
    b) O ye atheists who do not believe in God, what fools you are ! But if you do believe there is a God, you must also believe there is a true religion. And if not the Roman Catholic, which is it? Perhaps that of the pagans who admit many gods, thus they deny them all. Perhaps that of Mohammed, a religion invented by an impostor and framed for beasts rather than humans. Perhaps that of the Jєωs who had the true faith at one time but, because they rejected their redeemer, lost their faith, their country, their everything. Perhaps that of the heretics who, separating themselves from our Church, have confused all revealed dogmas in such a way that the belief of one heretic is contrary to that of his neighbor. O holy faith! Enlighten all those poor blind creatures who run to eternal perdition! (St. Alphonsus Liguori)
     


    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican II
    « Reply #11 on: May 09, 2017, 05:02:01 AM »
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    A brief snip from a 1980s Fr. Wathen interview will hopefully help clarify a little in regards to the Second Vatican Council.............

    ....There has never been a general council until the Second Vatican Council which did not have the purpose of gathering in order to deliberate on doctrinal matters.

    The Second Vatican Council was unique in that, from the very onset, Pope John XXIII said that this would be a different kind of council. He coined an altogether new expression, he said "this is a Pastoral Council" (Pope Paul VI on Jan 12, 1966 said the same thing).

    People need to understand that anything that this council pronounced that is a part of Catholic tradition and belief, is no less true and no less binding. They also need to understand that in calling itself a "Pastoral Council", the Council was telling the Catholic faithful that; "our deliberations will not be mainly on the subject of what is Catholic doctrines, our deliberations will be mainly regarding how the Church will approach the people", and the council said that "we are going to begin to approach the people in a different style".

    We have to say that rather remarkably, the Second Vatican Council was rather unconcerned about the sanctification of the people, the Second Vatican Council  was mainly concerned with it's image, with how the people saw, or see the Church.

    The second aspect of this matter is that the Church was going to present a new image to the non-Catholic world. It was going to make a totally different approach to the non-Catholics, the non-believers. No matter whether they were Protestants or Jєωs or Mohammedans, to non-believers the Church was going to present itself, not as an infallible body, but as an equal and the Church was going to present itself as being like them, searching for the truth.
    This is a horrendous aspect and very often, since then, ecclesiastics, including the pope, have suggested that we Catholics are searching for the truth.

    We're not searching for the truth at all - God has given us the truth, God has imposed the truth on us. And those who do not possess it, are bound under the pain of damnation to find it and to accept it.

    We are in a totally different situation from those outside the Church. We have access to the truth, we know where it is, and we're bound by it - and any Catholic who does not know the truth should find someone who does know it and listen to him. And if there's any priest that doesn't know it, that priest should leave the priesthood. He has no business pretending himself as a priest if he does not know his Catholic theology.

    The Church, since the Council, has been willing to discard everything that is recognizably Catholic, in order to fulfill this new preoccupation of presenting itself in a different fashion to the Catholic laypeople and to the non-Catholic world and for the sake of having a different image to the non-Catholic world, it has shown itself indifferent to the faith of the people so that the people are beside themselves with confusion. They no longer find anything recognizably Catholic, they don't know what to do in reaction. It is as if they simply no longer recognize their mother.

    She has taken on a totally new makeup and garb and way of speaking, they don't recognize her, and in their heart of hearts they know this is a false image, and they are scandalized by it, but all those to whom they look for explanation assure them that they're not to be dismayed, that they're not to take scandal, not to take umbridge. It is the role of the traditionalists to say, don't listen to them, they are liars and deceivers, you have every reason to be scandalized by this new approach.....

    ....In order to present this totally new image to it's people and to the world, the conciliarists have been willing to discard everything - and that is not a careless statement.  There is absolutely nothing they will not concede to fulfill this image, to carry it out. There is absolutely nothing, not a single doctrine will they not compromise, they will discard not only the Mass, they will discard any appearance, any external, and any morality in order not to be inconsistent with this self imposed obligation of being a true ecuмenical. Of being all things to all men, there is nothing that they will not discard, there is no damage they will not do, there is no fixture they will not destroy, there is nothing holy they will not trample, even the Body of Christ, there is nothing, absolutely nothing that they will not do in order to fulfill this self imposed image.

    And they have said in order to give weight to their resolve that the Holy Spirit has guided them to it, this is false. The Holy Spirit has guided them to nothing of it, we have every reason to know what spirit it is that has guided them to this.........
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican II
    « Reply #12 on: May 09, 2017, 05:16:25 AM »
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  • I had a modify button a couple days ago but it's since vanished on all my posts regardless of how old they are. I also cannot up or down vote a post.

    About Sedevacantism, I've seen nothing about how those who belong to this movement maintain communion with Rome. At Catholic Answers, it's explicitly denied as a schismatic movement.

    It's all very confusing to me. In history when there were events of papal corruption, how were these people's false teachings removed if it is obligatory to follow them?
    Sedevacantism is discussed in the Crisis forum, saying too much about it here will get this thread moved there, so I will just say that Nadir is correct, we may attend the Holy Sacrifice at sedevacantist chapels unless the chapel or priest requires us to pledge or sign something saying the pope is not the pope as a condition to participate at the Mass. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Vatican II
    « Reply #13 on: May 09, 2017, 09:56:10 AM »
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  • Then if that were the case, it looks like to me you're basically saying Satan prevailed against the gates of the Church.

    That would mean that 1 billion people are suddenly not Catholic.

    Try 7 billion people aren't Catholic... and I'll challenge any Novus ordo-ite on the validity of their "1 billion Catholic number".

    Oh, maybe you're going to tell me they're coming from voodoo-Africa, the high growth region for the Church ?  :jester:

    The number is just another newChurch concoction.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Vatican II
    « Reply #14 on: May 09, 2017, 10:05:48 AM »
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  • Most of the Novus Ordo people who aren't Catholic (which is the vast majority) didn't lose the faith "suddenly".  They lost it in degrees over the past 50 years or were never taught the faith or were concerned enough to learn anything about the faith in the first place.