Most Traditional Catholics simply take it for granted that there are errors and even "heresies" in Vatican II, but very many of us have not even READ Vatican II.  For the sake of intellectual honesty, I want to start this thread.  First I offer all the potentially problematic parts of Lumen Gentium.  Later I want to comment on everything in there, and I welcome others' comments as well.  LG is a very long docuмent and the vast majority of it poses no problems to Catholic teaching; in fact, some sections are quite moving and inspirational.  I'm sure that I'll get downthumbed just for saying that, but it's important to be honest and not to bring an emotional repugnance to "anything Vatican II' to this; otherwise we cannot hope to arrive at any objective analysis.

14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion.
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Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.
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But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God. Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church's magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour.  They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about.
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16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life.
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29. At a lower level of the hierarchy are deacons, upon whom hands are imposed "not unto the priesthood, but unto a ministry of service." For strengthened by sacramental grace, in communion with the bishop and his group of priests they serve in the diaconate of the liturgy, of the word, and of charity to the people of God. It is the duty of the deacon, according as it shall have been assigned to him by competent authority, to administer baptism solemnly, to be custodian and dispenser of the Eucharist, to assist at and bless marriages in the name of the Church, to bring Viaticuм to the dying, to read the Sacred Scripture to the faithful, to instruct and exhort the people, to preside over the worship and prayer of the faithful, to administer sacramentals, to officiate at funeral and burial services.
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36.
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For it must be admitted that the temporal sphere is governed by its own principles, since it is rightly concerned with the interests of this world. But that ominous doctrine which attempts to build a society with no regard whatever for religion, and which attacks and destroys the religious liberty of its citizens, is rightly to be rejected.

Good thread!
I think I understand what Ladislaus is doing, in a nutshell, he is looking for proof that the V2 docs / Magisterium say things that are explicitly or unmistakeably in direct contradiction of the perennial Magisterium so you cannot just say the blanket statement that there is poison mixed in, even though there is.

They were very, very crafty in developing the Newchurch docs - I like to agree again with Fr. Wathen when referring to The Decree on Ecuмenism: Unitatis Redintegratio, he states:

"We said above that it is not important what the wording of the decrees is, since no one bothers to read them anymore-something totally unsurprising, since they were not meant to be read, only generically referred to. Nevertheless, it is in the wording of two decrees that we find the subtle poison which has by now brought the Church to its present lassitude."

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion.

Again, no direct error, but error by implication.  And again, only the "Feeneyites" would have any problem with even the "implied error".  There's the implication that people can be PARTIALLY incorporated in the Church and "bound to the Church" in a non-invisible way.  But, again, it doesn't actually SAY that directly.

Non-Feeneyite Traditional Catholics agree with the implied corollary.

Most Traditional Catholics think that those who are not visibly within the Catholic Church can be saved, i.e. that those who live out their lives as Protestants, Jєωs, Muslims can be saved due to some subjective longing to do the will of God.  This echoes the "teaching" of Suprema Haec (which LG will directly quote later on).

So if these people can be saved, then, as a consequence of EENS, they must be somehow WITHIN the Church.  But they are not "fully incorporated in the society of the Church" and are not "bound in a visible way" to the Church.  This teaching, implied here by LG, is actually believed by the vast majority of Traditional Catholics.  In fact, most Traditional Catholics would have to applaud LG for this defense of the faith against the "Feeneyite heresy".

Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.

All non-Feeneyite Traditional Catholics agree with this statement.  Even from the "Feeneyite" perspective, it doesn't actually state that catechumens are within the Church or members of the Church or that they can be saved if they do not become members of the Church before they die, just that they are "joined with the Church" SOMEHOW and "embraced" by the Church.  Whatever that means.  But, again, if you're not a Feeneyite, nothing to see here.  In fact, praise LG for condemning the "Feeneyite heresy".  Perhaps THAT is why the Holy Spirit inspired the Vatican II Council, to condemn THE MOST PERNICIOUS ERROR of modern times, the "Feeneyite heresy".

But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God. Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church's magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

Suggests "toning down" emphasis on Marian theology in order to avoid offending the "separated brethren".  Is there a suggestion that popular Marian devotion amounts to "vain credulity"?  What "gross exaggerations" were there prevalent among Catholics regarding Our Blessed Mother?  Was there rampant suggestion that Our Lady was actually divine?  Apart from going there, how can one "exaggerate" the dignity of Our Blessed Mother?  No direct error, however, just a possible implied impiety.

Here we have the term "separated brethren" introduced; again, though, in the ecclesiology / soteriology of most Traditional Catholics, this term makes sense.  Certain Protestants are within the Church (to some degree).  To that extent, they are indeed brethren.  Yet, since they are not "fully incorporated" in the Church through the "visible bonds", they remain visibly "separated" from us.  So both "brethren" and "separated" at the same time.  Again, for the non-Feeneyite, nothing to see here; move along.

I don't understand what you are trying to prove here.  IF ANY poison is mixed with truth, it is false.  

Would you not like to really know what exactly is that you are rejecting from Vatican II Council?. That is the basis for your attendance in a SSPX Chapel, is not it? There is a real dangerous attitude among traditionalists of "don't give me any facts, I have made up my mind" which is not conductive to the actual truth, but following cults and personalities. It seems that most trads are actually AFRAID of discovering they have been missing the real enemy all along and most have not even really laid eyes upon the Vatican II docuмents.

This is a great thread for intellectual honesty, Ladislaus.

Quote from: Bellator Dei

I don't understand what you are trying to prove here.  IF ANY poison is mixed with truth, it is false.  

Would you not like to really know what exactly is that you are rejecting from Vatican II Council?. That is the basis for your attendance in a SSPX Chapel, is not it? There is a real dangerous attitude among traditionalists of "don't give me any facts, I have made up my mind" which is not conductive to the actual truth, but following cults and personalities. It seems that most trads are actually AFRAID of discovering they have been missing the real enemy all along and most have not even really laid eyes upon the Vatican II docuмents.

This is a great thread for intellectual honesty, Ladislaus.

Indeed, for most Traditional Catholics the sum total of their resistance can be summed up with, "I like Latin, communion while kneeling and on the tongue, and nice vestments" and can't stand "clown Masses, altar girls, communion in the hand, people immodestly dressed and acting irreverently in church".  Most Traditional Catholics have, I wager, never read the docuмents of Vatican II.  They just throw buzz words out there like "Religious Liberty" and "Ecuмenism" without being able even to define these terms.  OUR IMMORTAL SOULS ARE AT STAKE.  I take this very seriously.  This isn't just some political protest movement.  I deeply ponder and pray about and re-evaluate my positions and my thinking on the matter every day and nearly during every waking moment.

Quote from: Cantarella

Would you not like to really know what exactly is that you are rejecting from Vatican II Council?.

Do you honestly believe that I don't know what it is that I reject from the counter council?  C'mon

Just like the Pope Leo XIII says....it's poison

Pope Leo XIII called Vatican II poison?  I was unaware of that prophecy.