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Author Topic: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost  (Read 15820 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2019, 01:53:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on April 26, 2019, 01:11:22 PM
    Ecuмenical Councils are infallible because the whole Church teaches together, it's a separate issue from Papal Infallibility.
    ^^^More NO, made-up theology.

    FYI, unanimity, aka "the whole Church together", does not mean a thing, nothing at all as far as infallibility goes - except within the NO that is. If you know anything of the errors of V2, then you should know this.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #46 on: April 26, 2019, 07:16:58 PM »
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    • Quote
    The hierarchy can fall into error, just like most did during the Arian heresy.  St Paul/Scripture says that ANYONE can preach something different than what he taught and they should be anathema (i.e. that all teachings, post St Paul must agree with St Paul/Scripture).  Ergo, yes, Church teaching is constant and universal, and that means a universal of "time".  Truth is eternal, just like God is eternal.  Church teachings are eternal and do not change.  Your definition of "universal" is wrong. 

    Protestants use this to defend "sola scriptura", say that church  tradition they disagree with contradicts scripture, and will (at least often) attempt to argue this point from scripture.  If the legitimate authority can in fact *bind* souls to believe errors, and if those errors can be rejected by an appeal to Galatians, why is the Protestant wrong to attempt the same thing?

    I'm asking/framing this primarily as an apologetics question.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #47 on: April 26, 2019, 09:40:31 PM »
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    If the legitimate authority can in fact *bind* souls to believe errors, 

    V2 did not bind any catholic to believe anything.  Catholics are allowed to openly challenge any novelties and even +Benedict said that things should be interpreted in the light of Tradition.  I'm not defending the errors of V2; i'm just pointing out that this heretical council is not obligatory on anyone, as a matter of sin, nor as a matter of salvation.
    .
    Sedevacantists are the ones who, in a effort to prove that post-V2 popes aren't really popes, say that V2 is binding and obligatory and that we must "submit" to its "teachings", when in fact, there are different levels of submission, different levels of magisterial teaching and many, many V2 officials have said that V2 is unique, non-doctrinal and does not require the same level of submission as all other previous ecuмenical councils.
    .
    If people are honest, they'd admit the above, but many cannot because they feel it will weaken their sede stance.  I find that stupid because there are many, many, many other reasons to believe in sedevacantism, outside of V2.  Arguing that V2 was infallible, when the pope who presided over it, and tons of modernist, roman officials have said otherwise (especially when the modernists have a motivation to say it IS infallible, since they want to destroy Tradition), tells you that it's not.  It also tells you that God would not allow satan to have that much of a deception going on.  God would not allow a council to teach error and appear infallible.  And the facts show that V2 didn't do that.
    .


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    and if those errors can be rejected by an appeal to Galatians, why is the Protestant wrong to attempt the same thing?
    One can easily argue against V2 errors by quoting previous infallible statements from previous councils.  It's not rocket science and such comparisons are allowed and encouraged as part of any catholic's duty to know his faith.  

    Can non-catholics be saved if they die in their false religion?  V2 says no, then says sorta yes.  We have 3 infallible statements saying, emphatically "no".  Obviously, a non-doctrinal V2 council is trumped by 3 infallible statements and CENTURIES of consistent teachings on the matter.We're not talking complex theology here. 

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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #48 on: April 27, 2019, 07:44:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on April 26, 2019, 01:53:35 PM
    ^^^More NO, made-up theology.

    FYI, unanimity, aka "the whole Church together", does not mean a thing, nothing at all as far as infallibility goes - except within the NO that is. If you know anything of the errors of V2, then you should know this.
    What I said has always been the Church teaching on the infallibility of Ecuмenical Councils. Not my problem that the only one you've ever heard of is V1. By your logic the 1st Council of Nicaea was not Ecuмenical as the Pope was not present and didn't define any dogma himself, only agreeing to what the others defined. 
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #49 on: April 27, 2019, 07:49:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 26, 2019, 09:40:31 PM
    I find that stupid because there are many, many, many other reasons to believe in sedevacantism, outside of V2.  Arguing that V2 was infallible.... 
    :facepalm:

    I have to wonder why you continue to say this when there isn't one sedevacantist who believes Vatican II was infallible. We disagree on why/how it is not infallible, but sedevacantists do NOT believe it was infallible. 
     
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #50 on: April 27, 2019, 08:19:55 AM »
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    • Here is the full audience of Paul VI on January 12, 1966 (hopefully the link will come through as translated from the Italian):

    https://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/it/audiences/1966/docuмents/hf_p-vi_aud_19660112.html

    Here are a few tidbits:

    The legacy of the Council consists of the docuмents that were promulgated in the various conclusive moments of its discussions and its deliberations; these docuмents are of different nature; that is, they are Constitutions (four), they are Decrees (nine) and they are Declarations (three); but all together they form a body of doctrines and laws, which must give the Church that renewal for which the Council was promoted. 

    Care must be taken: the teachings of the Council do not constitute an organic and complete system of Catholic doctrine; this is much broader, as everyone knows, and is not called into question by the Council or substantially modified; indeed, the Council confirms it, illustrates it, defends it and develops it with an authoritative apology, full of wisdom, vigor and trust. And it is this doctrinal aspect of the Council, which we must first notice for the honor of the Word of God, which remains univocal and perennial, as a light that is not extinguished, and for the comfort of our souls, that by the frank and solemn voice of the Council they experience what providential office has been entrusted by Christ to the living magisterium of the Church to guard, to defend, to interpret the "deposit of faith"

    Therefore the Council helps the faithful, teachers or disciples, to overcome those states of mind - of denial, indifference, doubt, subjectivism, etc. - who are opposed to purity and the strength of faith. It is a great act of the ecclesiastical magisterium; and whoever adheres to the Council recognizes and honors with this the magisterium of the Church

    There are those who wonder what the authority, the theological qualification, that the Council wanted to attribute to its teachings, knowing that it avoided giving solemn dogmatic definitions, engaging the infallibility of the ecclesiastical magisterium. And the answer is known to those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated November 16, 1964: given the pastoral character of the Council, it avoided uttering dogmas endowed with the note of infallibility; but it nevertheless provided its teachings with the authority of the supreme ordinary magisterium which ordinary and so obviously authentic magisterium must be accepted docilely and sincerely by all the faithful, according to the mind of the Council about the nature and aims of the individual docuмents.

    When taken as a whole it is clear that Paul VI is stating that Vatican II was doctrinal and its teachings were provided with the authority of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium. According to him, there was no divergence with traditional teachings.  He is not saying that the Council is something Catholics can ignore, deny, etc.


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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #51 on: April 28, 2019, 10:36:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on April 27, 2019, 07:44:10 AM
    What I said has always been the Church teaching on the infallibility of Ecuмenical Councils. Not my problem that the only one you've ever heard of is V1.
    Prove it.

    So far, all you and 2V and Lad have done is make indisputable false claims that the Church has always taught that all councils are infallible ipso facto.

    Well, if it's always been a teaching of the Church, then why hasn't even one of you posted at least one of those teachings of the Church? 

    I will answer for you - because the Church has NEVER taught such a thing, there is no such teaching which is why none of you has been able to post it - yet like a stuck needle, you just keep repeating the same error. Do you think that repeating the same error over and over makes it truth?



    Quote
    By your logic the 1st Council of Nicaea was not Ecuмenical as the Pope was not present and didn't define any dogma himself, only agreeing to what the others defined.

    That is not my logic at all - but by your logic, V2 was an infallible council because that is the teaching of the Church - which even you do not believe even though you keep foolishly insisting it to be a teaching of the Church. 

     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #52 on: April 28, 2019, 10:42:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on April 28, 2019, 10:36:29 AM
    Prove it.

    So far, all you and 2V and Lad have done is make indisputable false claims that the Church has always taught that all councils are infallible ipso facto.

    Well, if it's always been a teaching of the Church, then why hasn't even one of you posted at least one of those teachings of the Church?

    I will answer for you - because the Church has NEVER taught such a thing, there is no such teaching which is why none of you has been able to post it - yet like a stuck needle, you just keep repeating the same error. Do you think that repeating the same error over and over makes it truth?



    That is not my logic at all - but by your logic, V2 was an infallible council because that is the teaching of the Church - which even you do not believe even though you keep foolishly insisting it to be a teaching of the Church.  

     
    Not only are you showing your stupidity, but you are also spouting heresy. You should refrain from writing anything.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #53 on: April 28, 2019, 10:48:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on April 28, 2019, 10:42:26 AM
    Not only are you showing your stupidity, but you are also spouting heresy. You should refrain from writing anything.
    Not only are you proving here is no such teaching, you are proving you are hypocrite by rejecting a teaching you say you believe the Church teaches. Add to that, you are promoting Novus Ordo doctrine as if it is an infallible teaching of the Catholic Church.

    Now either post the teaching or admit the Church has never taught such a thing. Try hard to understand this, I put it as basic as possible.
     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #54 on: April 28, 2019, 11:05:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 27, 2019, 08:19:55 AM
    When taken as a whole it is clear that Paul VI is stating that Vatican II was doctrinal and its teachings were provided with the authority of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium. According to him, there was no divergence with traditional teachings.  He is not saying that the Council is something Catholics can ignore, deny, etc.

    If that "Council" was doctrinal, then what errors were corrected and thus defined doctrinally? Because that's what Councils are supposed to be about. Also, we can't rely on the words of a modernist such as Paul VI. As Archbishop Lefebvre said, modernism is a disease of the intellect. 

    Fr. Gregory Hesse said that it's likely that VII wasn't even a Council, due to the problem of it not addressing error, as Councils had always done in the past.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #55 on: April 28, 2019, 11:32:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on April 28, 2019, 10:36:29 AM
    Prove it.

    So far, all you and 2V and Lad have done is make indisputable false claims that the Church has always taught that all councils are infallible ipso facto.

    Well, if it's always been a teaching of the Church, then why hasn't even one of you posted at least one of those teachings of the Church?

    I will answer for you - because the Church has NEVER taught such a thing, there is no such teaching which is why none of you has been able to post it - yet like a stuck needle, you just keep repeating the same error. Do you think that repeating the same error over and over makes it truth?



    That is not my logic at all - but by your logic, V2 was an infallible council because that is the teaching of the Church - which even you do not believe even though you keep foolishly insisting it to be a teaching of the Church.  

     
    The fact that the Council of Nicaea is infallible despite the Pope not defining anything there is proof, and yet here you are dodging it. The Pope did not fulfill any marker of infallibility at Nicaea, he wasn't even there. He just agreed to what OTHERS defined. It's the whole Church teaching in unison that makes Ecuмenical Councils infallible, that's why they're called Ecuмenical. It's the ecuмenicality of a Council that makes it infallible. 

    According to V1 the Pope, when speaking ex cathedra, is infallible because he's teaching on behalf of the whole Church. The Church as a whole cannot teach in error, that is why ex cathedra statements are infallible and why Ecuмenical Councils are. This is basic Catholic dogma, that you'd understand if you actually believed in a single EC other than your incredibly warped understanding of V1. 
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #56 on: April 28, 2019, 11:39:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on April 28, 2019, 10:48:59 AM
    Not only are you proving here is no such teaching, you are proving you are hypocrite by rejecting a teaching you say you believe the Church teaches. Add to that, you are promoting Novus Ordo doctrine as if it is an infallible teaching of the Catholic Church.

    Now either post the teaching or admit the Church has never taught such a thing. Try hard to understand this, I put it as basic as possible.
     
    You basically made up your own religion, you are a prime example of a casualty of VII, except you became a heretic (?) by your exaggerated reaction of avoiding the heretical modernism of the post VII church. You are actually a case study. After the fall of Arianism, one Bishop, Lucifer of Cagliari, had the same attitude as you. I suggest you study him and pick up a Catholic theology manual instead of relying on your own made up theology.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #57 on: April 28, 2019, 11:47:43 AM »
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    • @ 1:04 "...I have been ordained, unfortunately in the new rite of ordination, but thank God in Latin, everything strictly by the book and +ABL said that would be valid, +Fellay said it's valid and Fr. Franz Schmidberger who is my present superior in Austria says it's valid and +Williamson said there's no need for conditional ordination...."

    https://youtu.be/lfJZv44xFHQ?t=62
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #58 on: April 28, 2019, 11:55:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on April 28, 2019, 11:32:10 AM
    The fact that the Council of Nicaea is infallible despite the Pope not defining anything there is proof, and yet here you are dodging it. The Pope did not fulfill any marker of infallibility at Nicaea, he wasn't even there. He just agreed to what OTHERS defined. It's the whole Church teaching in unison that makes Ecuмenical Councils infallible, that's why they're called Ecuмenical. It's the ecuмenicality of a Council that makes it infallible.

    According to V1 the Pope, when speaking ex cathedra, is infallible because he's teaching on behalf of the whole Church. The Church as a whole cannot teach in error, that is why ex cathedra statements are infallible and why Ecuмenical Councils are. This is basic Catholic dogma, that you'd understand if you actually believed in a single EC other than your incredibly warped understanding of V1.
    You don't have a clue what you are even talking about.

    Add you and QVD to the list of those who believe Novus Ordo dogma is Catholic dogma, yet cannot post even one actual teaching from the Church to substantiate your claim, which only serves to prove that you being wrong does not matter to you. That is all you keep proving.

    My advice is to stay off the Novus Ordo Watch, Dimond Bro and whatever other NO / sede sites you get your information from - except to possibly use as evidence against them. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #59 on: April 28, 2019, 11:56:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on April 28, 2019, 11:39:14 AM
    You basically made up your own religion, you are a prime example of a casualty of VII, except you became a heretic (?) by your exaggerated reaction of avoiding the heretical modernism of the post VII church. You are actually a case study. After the fall of Arianism, one Bishop, Lucifer of Cagliari, had the same attitude as you. I suggest you study him and pick up a Catholic theology manual instead of relying on your own made up theology.
    Another one who keeps proving he's wrong and that being wrong not only does not matter to him - but also that he glories in being wrong.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
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