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Author Topic: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost  (Read 15818 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2019, 11:06:27 AM »
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  • Quote
    This does not mean that the infallibility of the Council is nothing more than a way for the Pope to exercise his individual infallibility.
    That's exactly what it means.  No one is infallible, save the pope.  A council is ONLY infallible because the pope exercises his infallibility through it.  The council fathers help to write texts and formulate teachings, but the pope is the one who decides and pronounces the infallible formula.
    .
    A council can also be infallible outside of a solemn definition...ONLY when they are re-teaching "that which has always been taught" (i.e. confirming Tradition).  A council or a pope cannot define doctrine or teach something new, without a solemn definition.
    .
    The ordinary/universal magisterium can only re-teach Tradition.  The ordinary/universal magisterium can NEVER define something new.  V2 didn't make use of its solemn infallibility, so all it's novelties are anathema, right out of the gate.  V2 (in theory) made use of its ordinary/universal magisterium when it reiterated certain truths.  Yet, sentences later, when it contradicted itself, this was not a use of the magisterium, but an error, since it was not in accord with Tradition.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #31 on: April 26, 2019, 11:07:55 AM »
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  • Stubborn and Pax believe that 99.5% of the Magisterium (the non-infallible portion) can become corrupted with error at any given time.  You limit the inerrancy of the Church to about the .5% of solemnly defined dogma.  [PS -- yes, Stubborn, I'm aware of your own unique personal definition of Magisterium that includes only the infallible portions.  But given that no Catholic theologian has ever defined it the way you do, I'll just ignore it.]


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #32 on: April 26, 2019, 11:09:21 AM »
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  • And Stubborn left out the rest of that portion of Paul VI's Audience:
    but it nevertheless provided its teachings with the authority of the supreme ordinary magisterium which ordinary and so obviously authentic magisterium must be accepted docilely and sincerely by all the faithful, according to the mind of the Council about the nature and aims of the individual docuмents.
    This is V2 speak, employing the confused term SOE as if that means something.

    Now onto you providing the doctrine proving that all councils are ipso facto infallible. Feel free anytime.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #33 on: April 26, 2019, 11:10:56 AM »
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  • Stubborn and Pax believe that 99.5% of the Magisterium (the non-infallible portion) can become corrupted with error at any given time.  You limit the inerrancy of the Church to about the .5% of solemnly defined dogma.
    You have no idea what you're even talking about.

    In case you missed it, the Magisterium is always infallible. Always. No exceptions.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #34 on: April 26, 2019, 11:15:18 AM »
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  • That's exactly what it means.  No one is infallible, save the pope.

    bzzzzt.  And you are exactly WRONG.  No INDIVIDUAL is infallible other than the Pope, but the Church herself as a body is infallible.  In fact, it's precisely because the Church is infallible that the Pope, as the head of the Church, is infallible, because in him is present virtually the entire Church.  There's a DISTINCT notion of the infallibility of the Church teaching AND the infallibility of the Church BELIEVING that are taught by theologians.

    While in practice, the Church's body cannot exercise infallibility independent of her head, these are FORMALLY DISTINCT notions.

    You have it exactly backwards.  It is primarily the CHURCH which is infallble.  Now, the Pope as head of the Church cannot err because that would mean that the Church has effectively erred.  So the infallibility of the Pope derives from the infallibility of the Church, and not the other way around, as you would have it.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #35 on: April 26, 2019, 11:15:31 AM »
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    Stubborn and Pax believe that 99.5% of the Magisterium (the non-infallible portion) can become corrupted with error at any given time. 
    No, I believe that 99.5% of the time, in the post-V2 period, the hierarchy has not made use of the Ordinary/Universal Magisterium because they haven't taught in accordance with Tradition.  They have only made use of their fallible, ordinary magisterium, (i.e. they have taught as private theologians, mere bishops, etc). 
    The ordinary magisterium is not infallible in any way.

    Quote
    This notion that something also has to be universal in time has the corollary of suggesting that the entire Ecclesia Docens can fall into error on a significant point of Catholic doctrine, i.e. that the Magsterium can defect at any given time.
    The hierarchy can fall into error, just like most did during the Arian heresy.  St Paul/Scripture says that ANYONE can preach something different than what he taught and they should be anathema (i.e. that all teachings, post St Paul must agree with St Paul/Scripture).  Ergo, yes, Church teaching is constant and universal, and that means a universal of "time".  Truth is eternal, just like God is eternal.  Church teachings are eternal and do not change.  Your definition of "universal" is wrong. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #36 on: April 26, 2019, 11:17:29 AM »
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  • You have no idea what you're even talking about.

    In case you missed it, the Magisterium is always infallible. Always. No exceptions.

    Oh, stop it already, you bumbling idiot.  No Catholic theologian has ever defined the term Magisterium the way you do, as consisting of only the infallible Magisterium.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #37 on: April 26, 2019, 11:19:59 AM »
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    There's a DISTINCT notion of the infallibility of the Church teaching
    Right.  Church teaching is universal, i.e. it survives over time, because Truth does not change.  What was doctrine 400 years ago is still doctrine today. 

    When I said the pope is only infallible, I'm speaking of the USE of infallibility.  The Church is infallible independent of the pope, yes, but not because She exercises infallibility (only a person can do this), but because PRIOR teachings OF POPES, are infallible.  And the Church is a collection of teachings (i.e. a collection of prior papal uses of infallibility).


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #38 on: April 26, 2019, 11:22:33 AM »
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  • This is V2 speak, employing the confused term SOE as if that means something.

    Now onto you providing the doctrine proving that all councils are ipso facto infallible. Feel free anytime.
    LOL..so Paul VI's words are V2 speak when you want it to be!   :laugh1:
    Stubborn is willfully blind.  Anyone who follows him, follows him into the pit.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #39 on: April 26, 2019, 11:27:35 AM »
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  • Right.  Church teaching is universal, i.e. it survives over time, because Truth does not change.  What was doctrine 400 years ago is still doctrine today.

    When I said the pope is only infallible, I'm speaking of the USE of infallibility.  The Church is infallible independent of the pope, yes, but not because She exercises infallibility (only a person can do this), but because PRIOR teachings OF POPES, are infallible.  And the Church is a collection of teachings (i.e. a collection of prior papal uses of infallibility).

    Yes, indeed, the Church cannot exercise infallibility independent of the Pope ... but the Church AS A WHOLE is infallible, i.e. when united to the Pope.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #40 on: April 26, 2019, 11:28:49 AM »
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  • LOL..so Paul VI's words are V2 speak when you want it to be!   :laugh1:
    Stubborn is willfully blind.  Anyone who follows him, follows him into the pit.

    I don't believe that anyone follows him.  No one on CathInfo here agrees with his definition of "Magisterium".


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #41 on: April 26, 2019, 11:30:10 AM »
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  • Oh, stop it already, you bumbling idiot.  No Catholic theologian has ever defined the term Magisterium the way you do, as consisting of only the infallible Magisterium.
    You're the bumbling idiot and yes, Catholic theologians and Pope Pius IX defined the term, your problem is you reject those definitions. That you cannot understand it from the linked explanation only seems to prove that the NO you were indoctrinated in, has your thinking still polluted. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #42 on: April 26, 2019, 11:32:35 AM »
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  • Yes, indeed, the Church cannot exercise infallibility independent of the Pope ... but the Church AS A WHOLE is infallible, i.e. when united to the Pope.
    ^^^Novus Ordo doctrine. There is no infallibility in "the Church as a whole" - what is that anyway?

    Do you mean to say "The Universal Church"?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #43 on: April 26, 2019, 11:36:10 AM »
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  • No one on CathInfo here agrees with his definition of "Magisterium".
    Listen to the dogmatic doubter will ya lol.

    Oh, and including poster Roman Theo, there are at least 7 who agree, so you are wrong again.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #44 on: April 26, 2019, 01:11:22 PM »
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  • That's exactly what it means.  No one is infallible, save the pope.  A council is ONLY infallible because the pope exercises his infallibility through it.  The council fathers help to write texts and formulate teachings, but the pope is the one who decides and pronounces the infallible formula.
    .
    A council can also be infallible outside of a solemn definition...ONLY when they are re-teaching "that which has always been taught" (i.e. confirming Tradition).  A council or a pope cannot define doctrine or teach something new, without a solemn definition.
    .
    The ordinary/universal magisterium can only re-teach Tradition.  The ordinary/universal magisterium can NEVER define something new.  V2 didn't make use of its solemn infallibility, so all it's novelties are anathema, right out of the gate.  V2 (in theory) made use of its ordinary/universal magisterium when it reiterated certain truths.  Yet, sentences later, when it contradicted itself, this was not a use of the magisterium, but an error, since it was not in accord with Tradition.
    There were Ecuмenical Councils where the Pope wasn't present, he must only affirm the teachings therein. Ecuмenical Councils are infallible because the whole Church teaches together, it's a separate issue from Papal Infallibility.