Author Topic: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost  (Read 5606 times)

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Offline trad123

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Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
« on: April 24, 2019, 10:22:53 PM »
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  • All of the documents in the Latin translation have it.


    LUMEN GENTIUM

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html


    Quote
    69.

    (. . .)

    Each and all these items which are set forth in this dogmatic Constitution have met with the approval of the Council Fathers. And We by the apostolic power given Us by Christ together with the Venerable Fathers in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and establish it and command that what has thus been decided in the Council be promulgated for the glory of God.



    NOSTRA AETATE

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_lt.html

    In the Latin version:

    Quote
    5.

    (. . .)

    Haec omnia et singula quae in hac Declaratione edicta sunt, placuerunt Sacrosancti Concilii Patribus. Et Nos, Apostolica a Christo Nobis tradita potestate, illa, una cum Venerabilibus Patribus, in Spiritu Sancto approbamus, decernimus ac statuimus et quae ita synodaliter statuta sunt ad Dei gloriam promulgari iubemus.


    DIGNITATIS HUMANAE

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651207_dignitatis-humanae_lt.html


    Quote
    15.

    (. . .)

    Haec omnia et singula quae in hac Declaratione edicta sunt, placuerunt Sacrosancti Concilii Patribus. Et Nos, Apostolica a Christo Nobis tradita potestate, illa, una cum Venerabilibus Patribus, in Spiritu Sancto approbamus, decernimus ac statuimus et quae ita synodaliter statuta sunt ad Dei gloriam promulgari iubemus.



    http://www.vatican.va/archive/aas/index_sp.htm

    AAS 57 [1965]

    ACTA APOSTOLICAE SEDIS # 57, 1965,

    page 67
    page 85
    page 107

    I have no desire to go further through the PDF document.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #1 on: April 24, 2019, 11:03:51 PM »
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  • Indeed, to say that such a document could be riddled with error makes a mockery of the Magisterium ... and it means this is merely flowery ... but altogether ineffectual ... language.


    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #2 on: April 24, 2019, 11:22:41 PM »
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  • Ughh... 

    Just when I think the R&R position is rational, something else comes up...

    Deliver us, O Lord.
    Humble thy spirit very much: for the vengeance on the flesh of the ungodly is fire and worms. - Ecclesiasticus 7:18

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #3 on: April 25, 2019, 01:25:29 AM »
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  • Indeed, to say that such a document could be riddled with error makes a mockery of the Magisterium ... and it means this is merely flowery ... but altogether ineffectual ... language.
    Is there a missing premise here?  Like do you mean "while accepting Paul VI as a true pope" or something like that?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #4 on: April 25, 2019, 06:07:27 AM »
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  • Fr. Hesse: Papal Infallibility - Fact vs. Falsehood

    It is a great comfort to hear the truth of the matter clearly explained, by one who knows what he is talking about. It's an hour long, but worth listening to the whole thing and learn what Papal Infallibility is, along with Fact vs. Falsehood. He says many truths in this video, and among them, one for the sedes, he tells us exactly where the Church is located.


    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #5 on: April 25, 2019, 08:06:25 AM »
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  • Is there a missing premise here?  Like do you mean "while accepting Paul VI as a true pope" or something like that?
    From the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on "General Councils":

    The infallibility of the council is intrinsic, i.e. springs from its nature. Christ promised to be in the midst of two or three of His disciples gathered together in His name; now an Ecumenical council is, in fact or in law, a gathering of all Christ's co-workers for the salvation of man through true faith and holy conduct; He is therefore in their midst, fulfilling His promises and leading them into the truth for which they are striving. His presence, by cementing the unity of the assembly into one body — His own mystical body — gives it the necessary completeness, and makes up for any defect possibly arising from the physical absence of a certain number of bishops. The same presence strengthens the action of the pope, so that, as mouthpiece of the council, he can say in truth, "it has seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us", and consequently can, and does, put the seal of infallibility on the conciliar decree irrespective of his own personal infallibility.

    Some important consequences flow from these principles. Conciliar decrees approved by the pope have a double guarantee of infallibility: their own and that of the infallible pope. The council's dignity is, therefore, not diminished, but increased, by the definition of papal infallibility, nor does that definition imply a "circular demonstration" by which the council would make the pope infallible and the pope would render the same service to the council. It should however, be borne in mind that the council without the pope has no guarantee of infallibility, therefore the conciliar and the papal infallibilities are not two separate and addible units, but one unit with single or double excellence.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #6 on: April 25, 2019, 08:25:35 AM »
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  • Fr. Hesse: Papal Infallibility - Fact vs. Falsehood

    It is a great comfort to hear the truth of the matter clearly explained, by one who knows what he is talking about. It's an hour long, but worth listening to the whole thing and learn what Papal Infallibility is, along with Fact vs. Falsehood. He says many truths in this video, and among them, one for the sedes, he tells us exactly where the Church is located.



    You're going to at least have to point out where in the video he addresses this particular subject. Otherwise the video is just a diversionary tactic - we go off an watch an hour long video, don't see anything that refutes OP's point, tell you as much, you accuse us of not watching the video, and so on. Even from the title, which regards Papal Infallibity, I can already tell the video will be 99% irrelevant to this thread as this thread is about the infallibility of Ecumenical Councils. 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #7 on: April 25, 2019, 09:11:42 AM »
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  • You're going to at least have to point out where in the video he addresses this particular subject. Otherwise the video is just a diversionary tactic - we go off an watch an hour long video, don't see anything that refutes OP's point, tell you as much, you accuse us of not watching the video, and so on. Even from the title, which regards Papal Infallibity, I can already tell the video will be 99% irrelevant to this thread as this thread is about the infallibility of Ecumenical Councils.
    No, it is not a "diversionary tactic", I have never played that game. In order to learn, listening to the whole thing is needed. The good father goes into and explains many pertinent subjects that pertain to infallibility, and he deals with a lot of other things that relate to infallibility, indefectibility, V2 etc., including a brief history of which popes throughout the Church's history taught heresy, what heresy is, where the Church is, and on and on. 

    Just turn it on and listen to parts as you can and you should see why listening to only snips does the whole thing a terrible injustice.
     
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #8 on: April 25, 2019, 10:25:22 AM »
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  • No, it is not a "diversionary tactic", I have never played that game. In order to learn, listening to the whole thing is needed. The good father goes into and explains many pertinent subjects that pertain to infallibility, and he deals with a lot of other things that relate to infallibility, indefectibility, V2 etc., including a brief history of which popes throughout the Church's history taught heresy, what heresy is, where the Church is, and on and on.  

    Just turn it on and listen to parts as you can and you should see why listening to only snips does the whole thing a terrible injustice.
     
    The" good father" was ordained in the doubtful...at best.. new rite of Paul VI. 
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #9 on: April 25, 2019, 10:36:08 AM »
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  • The" good father" was ordained in the doubtful...at best.. new rite of Paul VI.
    And he made absolutely sure that his ordination was valid. Far as that goes, there is zero doubt that he was a valid priest. I could go on about how and why he made certain there is no doubt, but to what end?
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #10 on: April 25, 2019, 02:10:19 PM »
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  • Stubborn,

    I believe these are the quotes the seeds in the anonymous thread are referring to.
    Humble thy spirit very much: for the vengeance on the flesh of the ungodly is fire and worms. - Ecclesiasticus 7:18


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #11 on: April 25, 2019, 02:16:43 PM »
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  • Stubborn,

    I believe these are the quotes the seeds in the anonymous thread are referring to.
    Well, I wish they'd post here instead of the anon forum. If they want to hear the truth, they can listen and learn from the video I posted. Because it is truth, there is much beauty in much of what he says. But that's not what they want. What they want, is what they have, that's why they have it.

    I've said a few times in the past, I mainly post for those on the fence about sedeism. If those on the fence are seeking the truth, they will find that sedeism is not it.
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #12 on: April 25, 2019, 02:28:06 PM »
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  • Well, I wish they'd post here instead of the anon forum. If they want to hear the truth, they can listen and learn from the video I posted. Because it is truth, there is much beauty in much of what he says. But that's not what they want. What they want, is what they have, that's why they have it.

    I've said a few times in the past, I mainly post for those on the fence about sedeism. If those on the fence are seeking the truth, they will find that sedeism is not it.
    What degrees of assent do we have to give to Papal teaching and Councils? I was reading in my catechism (My Catholic Faith from the 40’s of 50’s) that Papal Encyclicals demand our respect and piety due to the Popes wisdom, but not necessarily strict adherence being a divine or Catholic Faith (that’s roughly what it said).


    Anyway, despite levels of assent, the quotes above are indicative of invoking Papal infallibility (matters of Faith and morals, descriptive language: approve decree declare, speaking to the universal Church?)
    Humble thy spirit very much: for the vengeance on the flesh of the ungodly is fire and worms. - Ecclesiasticus 7:18

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #13 on: April 25, 2019, 03:11:41 PM »
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  • What degrees of assent do we have to give to Papal teaching and Councils? I was reading in my catechism (My Catholic Faith from the 40’s of 50’s) that Papal Encyclicals demand our respect and piety due to the Popes wisdom, but not necessarily strict adherence being a divine or Catholic Faith (that’s roughly what it said).
    And if the pope's wisdom is non-existent, as is the case today, and if the encyclicals say things contrary to what the Church has always taught, as is the case today, then aside from us possibly being scandalized and horrified, we owe no ascent to those encyclicals whatsoever. There is absolutely nothing complicated about it. It actually does not even begin get complicated until the whole idea of sedeism enters the picture. Those faithful trads who kept the faith in the 60s and 70s when the NO was being forced upon us knew this - and did not go along with the V2 revolution.



    Quote
    Anyway, despite levels of assent, the quotes above are indicative of invoking Papal infallibility (matters of Faith and morals, descriptive language: approve decree declare, speaking to the universal Church?)

    On it's most basic, easy to understand level, the pope is only infallible when he defines a doctrine. Just keeping it basic......

    To expand, the pope is only infallible when he speaks ex cathedra. That means he is only infallible when he defines a doctrine to be held by the whole Church. The doctrine must concern either faith or morals. Outside of that, he is as capable of committing every sin, including the sin of public heresy, as you and I and everyone else.

    Concerning faith, means that the doctrine he defines to be held by the whole Church must preserve that which the Church has always taught, teach that which the Church has always taught, or defend what the Church has always taught in regards to the faith.

    Concerning morals, means that the doctrine he defines to be held by the whole Church is regarding morality, i.e sin. Using Trent as an example: "If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema".
    This Canon is dogma. It is telling the whole Church in clear and apodictic terms that we sin if we say that baptism is optional, which is why those who say such things are, per the judgement of the Church, anathema. IOW, if the pope speaking ex cathedra declares something to be a sin, that's infallible.

    Here is the dogma that defines papal infallibility from the First Vatican Council. This definition is wholly complete:

    ...We teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that  when the Roman pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when,  in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.

    Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.


    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Vatican II and the invocation of the Holy Ghost
    « Reply #14 on: April 25, 2019, 08:28:11 PM »
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  • Stubborn, thanks for the reply.

    As Ladislaus pointed out in the other thread, if V1 definition is the standard of papal infallibility, then we are left with very few infallible teachings. 

    The Trinity has never been declared per V1 definition of infallible teaching. 
    Humble thy spirit very much: for the vengeance on the flesh of the ungodly is fire and worms. - Ecclesiasticus 7:18

     

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