Author Topic: Francis Apostolic Exhortation Evangelli Guadium (Read 5950 times)

poche · « **Reply #20 on:** November 29, 2013, 12:09:54 AM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

"Non-Christians, by God’s gracious initiative, when they are faithful to their own consciences, can live “justified by the grace of God”,[199] and thus be “associated to the paschal mystery of Jesus Christ”

From the Letter of Paul to the Romans Chapter 2;

11 There is no partiality with God. 12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. 15
They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PYQ.HTM

poche · « **Reply #21 on:** November 29, 2013, 04:28:41 AM »

The ending to Evangeliis Gaudium has this prayer to the Holy Virgin;
Mary, Virgin and Mother,
you who, moved by the Holy Spirit,
welcomed the word of life
in the depths of your humble faith:
as you gave yourself completely to the Eternal One,
help us to say our own “yes”
to the urgent call, as pressing as ever,
to proclaim the good news of Jesus.

Filled with Christ’s presence,
you brought joy to John the Baptist,
making him exult in the womb of his mother.
Brimming over with joy,
you sang of the great things done by God.
Standing at the foot of the cross
with unyielding faith,
you received the joyful comfort of the resurrection,
and joined the disciples in awaiting the Spirit
so that the evangelizing Church might be born.

Obtain for us now a new ardour born of the resurrection,
that we may bring to all the Gospel of life
which triumphs over death.
Give us a holy courage to seek new paths,
that the gift of unfading beauty
may reach every man and woman.

Virgin of listening and contemplation,
Mother of love, Bride of the eternal wedding feast,
pray for the Church, whose pure icon you are,
that she may never be closed in on herself
or lose her passion for establishing God’s kingdom

Star of the new evangelisation,
help us to bear radiant witness to communion,
service, ardent and generous faith,
justice and love of the poor,
that the joy of the Gospel
may reach to the ends of the earth,
illuminating even the fringes of our world.

Mother of the living Gospel,
wellspring of happiness for God’s little ones,
pray for us.

Amen. Alleluia!

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/apost_exhortations/docuмents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium_en.html

Ladislaus · « **Reply #22 on:** November 29, 2013, 07:45:00 AM »

Quote from: poche

Quote from: 2Vermont
"Non-Christians, by God’s gracious initiative, when they are faithful to their own consciences, can live “justified by the grace of God”,[199] and thus be “associated to the paschal mystery of Jesus Christ”

What is the difference between this and the baptism of desire?

Depends on how you define "Baptism of Desire". If you define it the way Church Doctors like St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus did, then there's a huge difference between Bergoglio's statement and BoD.

2Vermont · « **Reply #23 on:** November 29, 2013, 08:18:11 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: poche
Quote from: 2Vermont
"Non-Christians, by God’s gracious initiative, when they are faithful to their own consciences, can live “justified by the grace of God”,[199] and thus be “associated to the paschal mystery of Jesus Christ”

What is the difference between this and the baptism of desire?

Depends on how you define "Baptism of Desire". If you define it the way Church Doctors like St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus did, then there's a huge difference between Bergoglio's statement and BoD.

And at the very least Francis doesn't seem to be speaking in rare exceptions. He seems to be speaking as if this happens on a fairly regular basis. I mean, aren't most people in general "faithful to their own consciences"? And wouldn't it also be true that most people's consciences are pretty poorly formed?

bowler · « **Reply #24 on:** November 29, 2013, 09:18:30 AM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: poche
Quote from: 2Vermont
"Non-Christians, by God’s gracious initiative, when they are faithful to their own consciences, can live “justified by the grace of God”,[199] and thus be “associated to the paschal mystery of Jesus Christ”

What is the difference between this and the baptism of desire?

Depends on how you define "Baptism of Desire". If you define it the way Church Doctors like St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus did, then there's a huge difference between Bergoglio's statement and BoD.

And at the very least Francis doesn't seem to be speaking in rare exceptions. He seems to be speaking as if this happens on a fairly regular basis. I mean, aren't most people in general "faithful to their own consciences"? And wouldn't it also be true that most people's consciences are pretty poorly formed?

This is something the SSPX complains about the conciliar church, that they "He seems to be speaking as if this happens on a fairly regular basis".
However, that observation is ridiculous since once you open the door to such a belief, as the SSPX has done, there are no limits, you can't just limit it to say it is rare. How do they know that it's rare? It's the same as Bill Clinton saying that he tried marijuana, but he didn't inhale it. Ridiculouis!

There is no difference between what Pope Francis said and what Bishop Fellay (and the SSPX seminaries teach):

Quote

Bishop Bernard Fellay, Conference in Denver, Co., Feb. 18, 2006: “We know that there are two other baptisms, that of desire and that of blood. These produce an invisible but real link with Christ but do not produce all of the effects which are received in the baptism of water… And the Church has always taught that you have people who will be in heaven, who are in the state of grace, who have been saved without knowing the Catholic Church. We know this. And yet, how is it possible if you cannot be saved outside the Church? It is absolutely true that they will be saved through the Catholic Church because they will be united to Christ, to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. It will, however, remain invisible, because this visible link is impossible for them. Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.” (The Angelus, “A Talk Heard Round the World,” April, 2006, p. 5.)