Author Topic: Various Responses to the Crisis (Read 1894 times)

2Vermont · « **on:** November 28, 2013, 07:52:34 AM »

I am still trying to come to grips with the various responses to the crisis and what makes the most sense to me. Could you all help me out here?

I'd like to see this thread be a place where all possible responses are explained. I think many of us are not solidly in one camp (although we definitely lean a certain way). I also think the responses include much more than just the SV and sedeplenist POV's. At least it seems that way to me.

I would like to know why you think your response makes the most sense and how it will help bring about resolution down the road. Please don't take this opportunity to attack other views except to make valid comparisons.

Thank you.

soulguard · « **Reply #1 on:** November 28, 2013, 08:15:33 AM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

I am still trying to come to grips with the various responses to the crisis and what makes the most sense to me. Could you all help me out here?

I'd like to see this thread be a place where all possible responses are explained. I think many of us are not solidly in one camp (although we definitely lean a certain way). I also think the responses include much more than just the SV and sedeplenist POV's. At least it seems that way to me.

I would like to know why you think your response makes the most sense and how it will help bring about resolution down the road. Please don't take this opportunity to attack other views except to make valid comparisons.

Thank you.

I hold that Francis and all of the Vatican 2 popes lost their office because of heresy, because I believe that a heretic cannot hold office in the church that he is not a member of.

I blame Vatican 2 on everything, and blame freemasons for Vatican 2.

I think the new ordination rites are valid because in the ancient church they were not as complex as they were before V2, and still were valid.

The resolution I believe is inevitable will happen when a conciliar pope offends traditional Catholics past their ability to tolerate him, then many traditionalists will split from the Vatican and eventually a new and true pope would be chosen to lead us. If all the traditionalists broke away right now, we would have this crisis fixed within 5 years. True bishops electing a true pope, justified by the usurpation of the upper hierarchy by heretics and freemasonic infiltrators and atheistic agents.

Surely it takes more than a spiritual consecration of heretics to office to paralyse the church. If everyone realised that traditional Catholics are the only Catholics and that the church is effectively paralysed by the leadership of heretics then the downfall of Catholicism would be averted. Until then, the belief that the Vatican is the true authority whom all things must serve is KILLING US. It has assimilated the FSSP, it will assimilate the SSPX, and it will assimilate the SSPX resistance, all because they recognised non-Catholics as having a right to rule over them.

You said this thread is not for debate but I wonder what other people think about how it should be fixed. I would like to see a few ideas.

Malleus 01 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 28, 2013, 08:45:10 AM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

I am still trying to come to grips with the various responses to the crisis and what makes the most sense to me. Could you all help me out here?

I'd like to see this thread be a place where all possible responses are explained. I think many of us are not solidly in one camp (although we definitely lean a certain way). I also think the responses include much more than just the SV and sedeplenist POV's. At least it seems that way to me.

I would like to know why you think your response makes the most sense and how it will help bring about resolution down the road. Please don't take this opportunity to attack other views except to make valid comparisons.

Thank you.[/quote

In my view the battle is less about a tangible human response with action in the world that one day will lead to a resolution and more about The Spiritual battle between good and evil. So while we all argue about which way is best and squabble about what divides us , the enemy is served IMO.

In my view Archbishop Lefebvre chose his position BUT his response was always the same - Exhort Catholics to Pray the Rosary - Offer the true Latin Mass Suffer and sacrifice for the TRUTH. Does it really matter if he chose that platform in which to do battle with the spiritual forces of evil? And Sedevacantists choose a different platform but fight the same battle with the same Weaponry - the Sacraments and The Holy Rosary and the Traditional Catholic Faith?

My fellow Catholics , we are in a spiritual battle. Try to rise above the pettiness that divides us and instead Unite in common Catholic Practises we all agree on. There is one GOD and ONE Blessed Mother and they love all their children the same. Serve GOD. That is the answer.

One of the Marks of the Church is unity. If you are not working to Unite in PRACTISE what you purport to believe - and instead seek only to accentuate what divides us - whom are you serving? It is easy to find differences from one group to another but far more difficult to Unite.

The answer is to be Catholic To live Catholic to know love and serve GOD and to love your neighbor out of that love and fidelity for GOD. The answer is to Unite not divide. A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand

Even if we all united as Catholics to pray the Holy Rosary at a specific hour in all traditional groups - something we all agree on - that would be a start.

So I guess in response to your question my response would be - to UNITE as CATHOLICS in the things that unite us and in doing so - let the Grace of Almighty GOD solve the issues that remain that divide us - the battle is spiritual -thus let us use spiritual means to combat it and set aside pride and human weakness that is proving to solve nothing.

Pax

LoverOfTradition · « **Reply #3 on:** November 28, 2013, 10:40:56 AM »

I think this can only be solved through the direct intervention of God. How or when? I don't know. I pay attention to the Prophecies and what they have to say about it.

In the meantime, we must pray that God restores His Holy Church and soon.

Mabel · « **Reply #4 on:** November 28, 2013, 11:25:47 AM »

Here is a list of the possible responses:
1. "Home Alone" Dogmatic
2. Stay-at-home, non-dogmatic
3. Selectively "Home Alone" (Gerry Matatics, Hutton Gibson)
4. Sent Priests only, those ordained by Lefebvre directly are included
5. Sent priest, preferred
6. Sedevacantists
*I would classify all the above as Sedevacantists but these are some of the difference within SVism

7. Guerdarianism, Cassicacuм Thesis
8. Gertrudians
* quasi-sedevacantists

9. Recognize and Ignore
* practical sedevacantists, but sedeplenists

10. "I like the Latin Mass and old traditions"
11. FSSP and like groups
12. Indult/Motu Crowd
* sedeplenists that follow some or most of what comes out of Rome, some compromise, sometimes against their will

13. Conservative Novus Ordo
14. Typical Novus Ordoite
15. Invested Novus Ordoite, "No problems here, everything is great"
16. Easter Lillies and Poinsettas
17. Completely lapsed Catholics

Mabel · « **Reply #5 on:** November 28, 2013, 11:37:12 AM »

I wanted to add more under #9 to include the Recognize and Reconcile position.

Cantarella · « **Reply #6 on:** November 28, 2013, 11:42:53 AM »

What about Recognize and Resist, Mabel?

Mabel · « **Reply #7 on:** November 28, 2013, 12:30:00 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

What about Recognize and Resist, Mabel?

That is mostly along the lines of recognize and ignore, isn't it?

I don't think they are resisting anything, as resisting implies some compliance when possible. I'm not sure what in the NO structure these people/clergy have complied with. They don't accept the new code, any encyclical letters, and they operate chapels, schools, cemeteries, etc. outside the normal structure of the "church" without approval from the local "bishop." Reading the news and knowing what modernist Rome is doing doesn't count as recognition, either.

Don't get me wrong, I think many of these families and clerics are heroes. I'm just trying to be accurate in my description.

copticruiser · « **Reply #8 on:** November 28, 2013, 11:26:56 PM »

No clear cut answer that's why we are all here on this forum on the same boat with Catholic Teaching and Tradition and Our Lady to steer us with all the while keeping our spiritual strength up via the Tridentene mass.

A must in Apologetics is JOHN SALZA he just had an awesome article on the New Mass and the Old Mass with clear Doctrinal Teachings on Both a great insight to those still researching the Protestant Catholics of Our day and the True Catholics of yesterday.

We dialoque less and less with Novus Order as they just Follow the Pope and the modern Innovations of today. I still plant the odd seed here and there when possible.

We dialoque with ALL Traditional Catholics whether the be sspx fssp sede etc as this group all have several things in common. Namely

The Rosary
The Old Mass or Some Eastern Rite Mass
Teachings of the Catholic Church pre vat 11
Awareness of prophectic warnings in our times
Awarenss that something is wrong with this NEW ORDER

Which I didn't reaize John Salza elaborates is impossible to create and goes against catholic teaching. (He has a lot of references on his site)

Sedes don't believe that their earthly father is still their dad even if he is an alcoholic or druggie or abuser they simply ignore his title just as they do with our current modern day popes. Not many trads like our current popes but guess what they are still pope bad or good no one can take the title away. No more than they can take the title away from their own Mother or Father.

Of course we only follow Teachings of The catholic Church so whatever the modern day hierarchy does in the end every catholic has a measuring stick to follow.

Hope that helps

Your friendly canadian :farmer:

poche · « **Reply #9 on:** November 28, 2013, 11:49:11 PM »

My response to any problem we have in the Catholic Church is the following;
from the Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 16;

13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PVP.HTM

Mabel · « **Reply #10 on:** November 29, 2013, 12:02:44 PM »

Quote from: poche

My response to any problem we have in the Catholic Church is the following;
from the Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 16;

13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PVP.HTM

It doesn't explain anything because sedevacantists believe in the papacy and the authority that comes from the pope. They are merely rejecting the claim of one man on the grounds that he ineligible to make that claim to the office.

Everyone is looking the other way when it comes to heresy, morals, and even the disciplinary laws of the Church. They aren't able to even begin to understand or recognize an imposter because he is the same as them: He doesn't believe.

Malleus 01 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 29, 2013, 02:03:11 PM »

Quote from: poche

My response to any problem we have in the Catholic Church is the following;
from the Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 16;

13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PVP.HTM

And over thirty times in our history Anti Popes existed and nothing any one of them said binded a single catholic.

Our Lord also Taught thus: MATTHEW 7

9 *Or what man is there among you, of whom if his son shall ask bread, will he reach him a stone?

10 Or if he shall ask a fish, will he reach him a serpent?

11 If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father, who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?

12 *All things, therefore, whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.

13 *Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who enter by it.

14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way, which leadeth to life: and few there are who find it!

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

16 By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes off thorns, or figs off thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the bad tree bringeth forth bad fruit.

18 A good tree cannot yield bad fruit, neither can an bad tree yield good fruit.

19 *Every tree that yieldeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

So ask yourselves what are the fruits?

2Vermont · « **Reply #12 on:** November 29, 2013, 02:13:23 PM »

Quote from: Malleus 01

My fellow Catholics , we are in a spiritual battle. Try to rise above the pettiness that divides us and instead Unite in common Catholic Practises we all agree on. There is one GOD and ONE Blessed Mother and they love all their children the same. Serve GOD. That is the answer.

One of the Marks of the Church is unity. If you are not working to Unite in PRACTISE what you purport to believe - and instead seek only to accentuate what divides us - whom are you serving? It is easy to find differences from one group to another but far more difficult to Unite.

The answer is to be Catholic To live Catholic to know love and serve GOD and to love your neighbor out of that love and fidelity for GOD. The answer is to Unite not divide. A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand

Even if we all united as Catholics to pray the Holy Rosary at a specific hour in all traditional groups - something we all agree on - that would be a start.

So I guess in response to your question my response would be - to UNITE as CATHOLICS in the things that unite us and in doing so - let the Grace of Almighty GOD solve the issues that remain that divide us - the battle is spiritual -thus let us use spiritual means to combat it and set aside pride and human weakness that is proving to solve nothing.

Pax

Thank you for this post because it seems to be speaking to me at this point in my struggle/journey. It doesn't answer it all for me, but I suspect that it's a huge piece.

2Vermont · « **Reply #13 on:** November 29, 2013, 02:21:14 PM »

Quote from: soulguard

You said this thread is not for debate but I wonder what other people think about how it should be fixed. I would like to see a few ideas.

I'm sorry it came across that way. I am in no way saying "no debate". I just don't want to see this turn into a thread where we're at each others' throats for our differences in opinion. I absolutely want to hear how others think it will/should be fixed.

But as my husband said to me this morning after I woke up crying about the crisis, this is not for me to worry about. It's not my job. Good advice, I think.

Mabel · « **Reply #14 on:** November 29, 2013, 02:32:41 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: soulguard

You said this thread is not for debate but I wonder what other people think about how it should be fixed. I would like to see a few ideas.

I'm sorry it came across that way. I am in no way saying "no debate". I just don't want to see this turn into a thread where we're at each others' throats for our differences in opinion. I absolutely want to hear how others think it will/should be fixed.

But as my husband said to me this morning after I woke up crying about the crisis, this is not for me to worry about. It's not my job. Good advice, I think.

That is good. Sorry, I didn't understand what you wanted, I would have given a different answer.

As for me, I believe my best contributions to ending the Crisis are to pray, maintain unity among Catholics who believe the Faith, taking seriously my duties of state in life, resignation to God's Will, and to live in such a way that makes other people want to be Catholic.