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Author Topic: Validity or Invalidity of Confession over the Phone  (Read 9238 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Validity or Invalidity of Confession over the Phone
« on: November 03, 2023, 02:21:09 PM »
So, I was listening to an audio presentation on this thread ...
https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/act-of-perfect-contrition-72478
and the topic came up very briefly.

Here's a link to the audio (which is excellent, BTW):
https://soundcloud.com/novusordowatch/the-spiritual-life-11

I'm struggling to understand why Confession couldn't be valid over the phone.  Most of what I've found online looks like Conciliar gobbledygook, the typical need for community and for people to be "present" ... the same types of principles that have led some to conclude that Mass isn't Mass unless there's someone else beside the priest there.

So, the priest does not have to be in physical contact with the penitent or touch the penitent when giving absolution.  Could the penitent by 5 feet away, 10 feet, 50 feet?  Some book arbitrarily threw out "20 paces".  So it's valid at 20, but invalid at 21?  That doesn't sound like a theological principles.

Does a penitent have to speak his sins to the priest?  Not necessarily.  If you have a mute person, it's perfectly acceptable for the individual to hand the priest a note with the sins written out.  Or, even pre-Vatican II, in danger of death or in the case of some other necessity (impending disaster or war), the priest could even give a general absolution.  While there would still be a necessity of precept to eventually confess those sins, the absolution would still be valid at that time and not only later when the penitent had the chance to confess.

There's no obligation for the penitent to see the priest giving the absolution, or the priest to see the penitent, as often the priest is separate by a screen.

So I'm struggling to find a theological principle that would invalidate Confession over the phone.  If one communicates one's sins to the priest (or in necessity at least intends to do so), whether by a note or by speaking ... why does it matter if it's over a phone line or a cell phone?  Those are just variations on communication, and the essence seems to be that the priest somehow obtains knowledge of the sins.

It's not necessary for the penitent to hear or see the priest giving the absolution (a deaf or blind person for instance).  It's not necessary for the priest and penitent to be in physical contact (usually they are not).

Why does some relatively arbitrary distance matter?  Penitent could be 5 or 10 feet away behind a screen when absolution is given and also be deaf and blind, having handed the priest a note, and not seeing or hearing or speaking the sins.  Who made up this "20 paces" criterion?  21 would invalidate the Confession?  Or 30?  Or 45.5?

There's no distance that actually matters for the efficacy of God's grace.

Any thoughts?

As far as I can tell, Confession would be valid over a phone ... since I can see no reason that it would not be.

Offline Yeti

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Re: Validity or Invalidity of Confession over the Phone
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2023, 02:30:26 PM »
The sacraments generally work in a simulation of physical causality. You pour the water on the head, you put the holy oil on the person, etc.

There is no physical proximity between people talking on the phone. They aren't even hearing each other's voices. They are hearing a machine replicate the sound of the other person's voice. If a priest could absolve someone over the phone, he could absolve anyone in any part of the world. He could mail someone a letter giving him absolution.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Validity or Invalidity of Confession over the Phone
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2023, 02:45:45 PM »
The sacraments generally work in a simulation of physical causality. You pour the water on the head, you put the holy oil on the person, etc.

Yeah, some of the Sacraments, depending on the matter required.  Confession isn't in that category.  Matter are the sins, the contrition, the confession, and the satisfaction.  There's no physical contact required to administer this Sacrament.  What's the need for proximity?  One can only come up with an arbitrary number of how much proximity is required and I've seen no theological explanation of the need for proximity.  I don't ever intend to confess over the phone ... unless possibly in danger of death when I had no other option (since it's considered doubtful by common theological consensus), but I'm just attempting to get a deeper understanding of the Sacrament by exploring this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Validity or Invalidity of Confession over the Phone
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2023, 02:47:49 PM »
They aren't even hearing each other's voices.

Sure, but why is this required?  I've brought up the example of the deaf mute, who could hand the priest a note and would not hear the absolution.  Very often the priest says the absolution in low voice and the penitent doesn't hear it.  Also, a priest can absolve an unconscious dying individual, or can (in emergencies) perform a general absolution over a crowd (and those in the crow farther away would not hear his voice).

If it is required to "hear" one another's voices, why?  And how could a deaf mute ever have valid Confession and Absolution?  How can a dying man who's unconscious be validly absolved?  Based on those two examples, these could be required only by precept and cannot be of essence for the validity of the Sacrament.

What's left if you remove this is "proxmity", and I'd like to explore why "proxmity" matters.  I get it for Sacraments where physical contact is necessary.  You can't poor water on someone who's a mile away.  Although, even there, I've read some thing where in the early Church, a female assistant (sometimes called a deaconess) would help female be immersed for baptism, while the bishops stood behind a screen and spoke the form of the Sacrament.

Offline Yeti

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Re: Validity or Invalidity of Confession over the Phone
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2023, 02:52:31 PM »
Here's a more detailed explanation from Halligan, The Administration of the Sacraments. He doesn't specifically mention the telephone, but he explains the ideas here.