Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Validity of +Thuc-Line Bishops -- a 30-Second Debunk of the Kelly-ite Position  (Read 558990 times)

0 Members and 13 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Gray2023

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 3185
  • Reputation: +1773/-970
  • Gender: Female
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • "their priest tells them to"

    Example, please.

    Situations like:

    A husband wants to switch from  R and R to sedevacantist.  

    Or the woman talks to a NO priest and goes back to the NO.

    Or the priest doesn't want to cross a woman who is emotional about her husband believes the woman (without getting the other side of the story) and tells her to leave the husband.

    Basically wherever the woman disagrees with her husband, and maybe 3cen her father she will go to the priest (because he in her eyes has higher authority) to get what she wants.  
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 226
    • Reputation: +93/-146
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • Watching pax and Ladislaus completely sperg out is most amusing.

    Its a frequent tactic of sedes everywhere to try to compete with you on how hard you can beat your chest. Like that is somehow a measure of truth.

    1. There's nothing to "call out" about the Angelus article. You either believe it or you don't. There is no coherent reason to not believe it.

    2. Thucs mental instability is well docuмented. I can post a good article by Infotradicion about him if you care for me to do that. But you dont though Pax.


    You are both obviously compromised because you receive or have received sacraments from this line and dont want to admit that your confessions might be invalid. Or worse, you have personal relationships with these lunatics.

    I'm not, I reiterate against sedevacantism. Just those who compromise on the Sacraments over it.


    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 226
    • Reputation: +93/-146
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • oh yes the intention question.

    The problem is that he withheld ALL intention. That's the point.

    He knew full well that would make the Sacrament invalid.

    A Bishop like that is either extremely malicious, or totally insane.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12833
    • Reputation: +8149/-2505
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • The problem is that he withheld ALL intention. That's the point.
    :facepalm:  That doesn't invalidate the sacraments.  An atheist (who doesn't even believe in God) can validly baptize.  They have 0% of any personal intention, but that doesn't invalidate baptism.

    Offline WorldsAway

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 947
    • Reputation: +749/-89
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The problem is that he withheld ALL intention. That's the point.
    Considering he administered the sacraments with proper form and matter, no, he did not. If he did not intend to do what the Church does, he would not have done what the Church does

    And what exactly does withholding "ALL intention" mean? Can you withhold half intention? Would the sacrament be half valid if so? What if you withheld 99% intention? Would that still be valid?

    Quote
    He knew full well that would make the Sacrament invalid.
    It didn't, and it wouldn't have even if that's what he was thinking. If he did not want the sacraments to be effected, than he should not have properly administered them.

    Proper matter + proper form = intention to do what the Church does is presumed, even if it be a "virtual intention" = valid Sacrament

    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 226
    • Reputation: +93/-146
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • :facepalm:  That doesn't invalidate the sacraments.  An atheist (who doesn't even believe in God) can validly baptize.  They have 0% of any personal intention, but that doesn't invalidate baptism.
    It literally does. What are you talking about? An even with baptism they still do have to have subjective intention to do what the Church does.
    In the case of the other sacraments it is different.But the subjective intention is most certainly required. You clearly have no idea what you are rambling on about.

    Who let you on the internet?

    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 226
    • Reputation: +93/-146
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!3
  • Considering he administered the sacraments with proper form and matter, no, he did not. If he did not intend to do what the Church does, he would not have done what the Church does

    And what exactly does withholding "ALL intention" mean? Can you withhold half intention? Would the sacrament be half valid if so? What if you withheld 99% intention? Would that still be valid?
    It didn't, and it wouldn't have even if that's what he was thinking. If he did not want the sacraments to be effected, than he should not have properly administered them.

    Proper matter + proper form = intention to do what the Church does is presumed, even if it be a "virtual intention" = valid Sacrament

    Intention is an essential part of the validity of the Sacraments.

    Where did you learn your sacramental theology ? Back of a cereal packet? Youtube?

    Offline WorldsAway

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 947
    • Reputation: +749/-89
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Intention is an essential part of the validity of the Sacraments.

    Where did you learn your sacramental theology ? Back of a cereal packet? Youtube?
    Right, the intention to do what the Church does. By using the proper matter and form, the minister outwardly displays that intention. It does not matter what he may or may not be privately thinking.

    If that were the case, any ill willed bishop could cause an untold number of invalid ordinations and episcopal consecrations by thinking "haha I don't actually intend to ordain this man a priest (or consecrate this priest a bishop)"..as he uses the proper matter and form. The Church never judges inward intentions, because that is not possible. Only God can do that
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1339
    • Reputation: +600/-114
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • It literally does. What are you talking about? An even with baptism they still do have to have subjective intention to do what the Church does.
    In the case of the other sacraments it is different.But the subjective intention is most certainly required. You clearly have no idea what you are rambling on about.

    Who let you on the internet?

    TomGubbinsKimmage. Go read before you post more on this topic. Start with the section below:


    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q64.A9.C

    I answer that, As stated above (A. 5), since the minister works instrumentally in the sacraments, he acts not by his own but by Christ’s power. Now just as charity belongs to a man’s own power so also does faith. Wherefore, just as the validity of a sacrament does not require that the minister should have charity, and even sinners can confer sacraments, as stated above (A. 5); so neither is it necessary that he should have faith, and even an unbeliever can confer a true sacrament, provided that the other essentials be there.

    Offline Seraphina

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4480
    • Reputation: +3405/-363
    • Gender: Female
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • “…you and I today can decide we want to become a priest and absolutely find some THUC bishop to make us a priest in someone’s garage.”
     :incense: I can supply the garage. Just back out the 4-Runner, hang nice curtains on side walls, put a nice rug on the floor, clear the workbench. The bench can easily become an altar. It’s heavy duty, elevated, attached to wall, even facing ad orientum! About a dozen people can be seated with room for 4-6 within and around the altar area. There’s a door to the outside and a door into the house, into a small alcove usable as a sacristy. Parking is available on the street in cul-de-sac, also, there’s an overflow parking lot for overnight guests, walking distance on a paved trail to the house. Handicapped accessible. 
    I can accommodate 7-8 overnight guests, more if some are willing to sleep on fold out sofa and camp cot.  Many 4-5 ⭐️ hotels plus AirBnb within 15 miles, easy on/off interstate, main highways. Lots of restaurants and shopping nearby. 
    Area amenable to tourists, vacationers, lots of scenic areas for all tastes. 

    You supply the Thuc bishop, the candidates for ordinations and consecrations. Volunteers will be needed for set up, clean up, cooking, extra seating, etc. Must bring own items for altar, but I can supply lovely flowers. 
    Homeowner, (that’s me) has final say over who is ordained and/or consecrated. In general, must be human, male, attained age 25 for a priest, 35 for a bishop. He must be of sound body, mind, and morals, single without dependents, have no debt and is not a co-signer of an outstanding loan, be a Traditional Catholic for a minimum of five years,  prove he has studied and passed a rigorous program of preparation, in the USA legally whether a resident or visitor. Homeowner reserves  right to accept or refuse everyone from being on the property. HOA reserves right to enforce deportment of visitors to community up to and including laws of municipality and state, enforced by county and state police. Communication Media 
    by invitation of homeowner in cooperation with participants. 
    Let’s all pray for an increase in the number of traditional Catholic vocations! :incense:

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47454
    • Reputation: +28065/-5238
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • A Compilation: Abp. Lefebvre [and the traditional-SSPX] on the Thuc-line Bishops
    A Warning to Traditional Catholics Concerning False Shepherds
    The Angelus June 1982

    So, another sock-puppet account that signed on to go on the attack.

    It's well docuмented that early in the 1980s, +Lefebvre had become very hopefuly about a practical arrangement with Rome under Wojtyla, and begged him to be allowed to make the "experiment of Tradition" within the Conciliar pantheon, and thus threw SV priests under the bus and sacrificed them at the altar of the Modernists.

    As for Holy Orders, it's well known that +Lefebvre accepted as valid a priest (Fr. Bruno I believe) who had been ordained by +Thuc.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47454
    • Reputation: +28065/-5238
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It literally does. What are you talking about? An even with baptism they still do have to have subjective intention to do what the Church does.
    In the case of the other sacraments it is different.But the subjective intention is most certainly required. You clearly have no idea what you are rambling on about.

    Who let you on the internet?

    Another troll-turd, committing slander and attacking people as ignorant while showing himself an imbecile, knowing not even 10% of what they do.

    No, only the intention requires is to "do this thing the Church does".  If can think that Baptism is a bunch of nonsense, but if for whatever REASON (which you conflate with intention), even if it's just to comfort a dying person, if you decided ... "I'll do this [idiotic stupersitious nonensical] thing that Catholics do [just to make this guy feel good]." --> valid Baptism.

    Send this idiot packing ... as there's nothing worse than a moron who claims that those who aren't morons like him are the morons.

    I have no patience for scuм like these who sign up and start hurling excrement.  They are to be dealt with as they deserve.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47454
    • Reputation: +28065/-5238
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • TomGubbinsKimmage. Go read before you post more on this topic. Start with the section below:


    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q64.A9.C

    I answer that, As stated above (A. 5), since the minister works instrumentally in the sacraments, he acts not by his own but by Christ’s power. Now just as charity belongs to a man’s own power so also does faith. Wherefore, just as the validity of a sacrament does not require that the minister should have charity, and even sinners can confer sacraments, as stated above (A. 5); so neither is it necessary that he should have faith, and even an unbeliever can confer a true sacrament, provided that the other essentials be there.

    Yes, and he goes on to explain elsewhere that when someone has the intention to DO what the Church does, the Church then provides the intention that this action have the intended Sacramental effect.

    So, the "internal" intention (which RubbishKimmage here conflates wiht "subjective") need only consiste of intending to do this Rite of the Church, as in, to actually do it.  Excluded would be someone doing the Rite in order to mock it or simply to put on a play or a movie, etc.  They're not intending to do the Rite of the Church, but to make a movie, put on a play, or mock the Church, and this type of intention can in fact be known from the external forum.  But if I put on my vestments, go on to a Catholic church where the bulletin says there's going to be a 9AM Mass, put on my vestments, and then go out and perform the Rite prescribed by the Church ... that's all the intention that's required.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47454
    • Reputation: +28065/-5238
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Of course, that's all distraction from the fact that Archbishop Thuc clearly had the intention to consecrate / ordain, and was clearly in full possesson of his faculties.

    It's also clear that God will hold these slanderers accountable for their sins.

    Offline Gray2023

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 3185
    • Reputation: +1773/-970
    • Gender: Female
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • :incense: I can supply the garage. Just back out the 4-Runner, hang nice curtains on side walls, put a nice rug on the floor, clear the workbench. The bench can easily become an altar. It’s heavy duty, elevated, attached to wall, even facing ad orientum! About a dozen people can be seated with room for 4-6 within and around the altar area. There’s a door to the outside and a door into the house, into a small alcove usable as a sacristy. Parking is available on the street in cul-de-sac, also, there’s an overflow parking lot for overnight guests, walking distance on a paved trail to the house. Handicapped accessible.
    I can accommodate 7-8 overnight guests, more if some are willing to sleep on fold out sofa and camp cot.  Many 4-5 ⭐️ hotels plus AirBnb within 15 miles, easy on/off interstate, main highways. Lots of restaurants and shopping nearby.
    Area amenable to tourists, vacationers, lots of scenic areas for all tastes.

    You supply the Thuc bishop, the candidates for ordinations and consecrations. Volunteers will be needed for set up, clean up, cooking, extra seating, etc. Must bring own items for altar, but I can supply lovely flowers.
    Homeowner, (that’s me) has final say over who is ordained and/or consecrated. In general, must be human, male, attained age 25 for a priest, 35 for a bishop. He must be of sound body, mind, and morals, single without dependents, have no debt and is not a co-signer of an outstanding loan, be a Traditional Catholic for a minimum of five years,  prove he has studied and passed a rigorous program of preparation, in the USA legally whether a resident or visitor. Homeowner reserves  right to accept or refuse everyone from being on the property. HOA reserves right to enforce deportment of visitors to community up to and including laws of municipality and state, enforced by county and state police. Communication Media
    by invitation of homeowner in cooperation with participants.
    Let’s all pray for an increase in the number of traditional Catholic vocations! :incense:

    I love this. We need to send you a priest and start having regular services at your house.
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine