Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Validity of Thuc Bishops questioned yet again.....  (Read 14297 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 46885
  • Reputation: +27744/-5153
  • Gender: Male
Validity of Thuc Bishops questioned yet again.....
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2017, 06:17:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: snowball
    None of these clowns are valid, they should all check in
    to their local diocese and ask to submit to the authority
    of their real bishops, who can decide what to do with them.



    What on earth are you talking about?

    Offline Matto

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6882
    • Reputation: +3852/-406
    • Gender: Male
    • Love God and Play, Do Good Work and Pray
    Validity of Thuc Bishops questioned yet again.....
    « Reply #16 on: February 08, 2017, 06:34:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Of all the things I have read and heard about the Thuc consecrations there was one thing I have heard that made me have doubts about the validity of his consecrations. According to Hobson (cathinfo will not allow me to link to his website, which may not be trustworthy) Thuc admitted to pretending to consecrate people while secretly withholding the proper intention so that these people were not really made priests or Bishops even though the ceremony occured, and he admitted to doing this multiple times.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline Prayerful

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1000
    • Reputation: +354/-59
    • Gender: Male
    Validity of Thuc Bishops questioned yet again.....
    « Reply #17 on: February 08, 2017, 06:56:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Quote from: Matto
    Of all the things I have read and heard about the Thuc consecrations there was one thing I have heard that made me have doubts about the validity of his orders. According to this website (which may not be trustworthy) Thuc admitted to pretending to consecrate people while secretly withholding the proper intention so that these people were not really made priests or Bishops even though the ceremony occured, and he admitted to doing this multiple times.


    The link doesn't work for me, 404, file not found, using Tor (which actually works fine with Cath-Info, so dunno).

    Somewhat related, Fr Jenkins claims Abp Thuc said when concelebrating that he withheld his intention, but a lot of this is in the realms of 'he said, she said,' claim and counter-claim. Fr Jenkins considered that a grave matter, but if Abp Thuc were to withhold intention from consecrations done in the accustomed manner, it would be a far worse thing than perhaps mocking the Protestant Assembly Meal. It is somewhat like the proverbial bishop in Fr Hardon SJ's story who on his deathbed stated he withheld his intent while ordaining Jesuit, an Order he despised. Supposedly some of the Jesuits died of shock. A claim of Thuc sabotaging his consecrations, though, would need strong evidence, extraordinary claims needing extraordinary evidence. It would raise questions of state of mind, if true.

    I notice a one star Amazon review which takes the Derksen position on Thuc consecrations:

    Quote

    The Sacred and the Profane is an attempt by a bishop of the traditionalist Society of Saint Pius V (SSPV) to rebut the validity of the consecration of any and all bishops performed by the late Archbishop Thuc. This book's premise has been effectively demolished by Mario Derksen in his white paper titled "An Open Letter to Bishop Clarence Kelly on the 'Thuc Bishops' and the Errors in The Sacred and the Profane". Derksen's white paper can be read online at the thucbishops website. The Sacred and the Profane also can be read online.

    The SSPV was the only traditionalist Roman Catholic group - to my knowledge - that seriously questioned the validity of the Thuc line of bishops. The SSPV has been consistent if not logical in its stance. Archbishop Thuc consecrated numerous bishops in the wake of the heretical Vatican II. Some of these bishops turned out to behave rather scandalously, which cast an undeserved pall over subsequent consecrations by Abp. Thuc of worthy candidates. This topic is significant among traditional/authentic Catholic circles as the priesthood of the CMRI (Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen) traces its descent from the Thuc line.

    This book together with Derksen's white paper and Griff Ruby's The Resurrection of the Roman Catholic Church: A guide to the Traditional Roman Catholic movement together provide a very good background on the entire Abp. Thuc question, which is something of an inside story among traditionalist Catholics. See also The Destruction of the Christian Tradition, Updated and Revised.




    Offline Incredulous

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 9399
    • Reputation: +9209/-914
    • Gender: Male
    Validity of Thuc Bishops questioned yet again.....
    « Reply #18 on: February 08, 2017, 07:00:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Donato


    It seems simple to me :jumping2:

    If +ABL could justify his actions using the "Necessity clause" provided in Canon Law, then Archbishop Thuc could use it too!

    Funny how many of the SSPV priests were ordained by +ABL, who was ordained by a Masonic "kingpin" who admitted his intentions NOT to ordain as the Catholic Church does.

    Even +ABL couldn't explain how he received Holy Orders from Cardinal Lienart.

    I agree with Ladislaus, instead of fighting about it, why don't the minor trad orders cross-ordain and consecrate each other?

    As the SSPX capitulates and newChurch descends upon us, it's time to join forces.



    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline TKGS

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5847
    • Reputation: +4694/-490
    • Gender: Male
    Validity of Thuc Bishops questioned yet again.....
    « Reply #19 on: February 08, 2017, 07:10:11 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
  • There is actually no actual evidence that:

    1.  Cardinal Lienart was a Freemason.  The claim was found in a book by an unreliable author claiming an anonymous source.

    2.  Archbishop Thuc confessed to only simulating a sacrament.  I've never found the original source for the charge, but I have heard that it was Hobson himself.

    Both of these charges are false.  


    Offline Donato

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 104
    • Reputation: +66/-2
    • Gender: Male
    Validity of Thuc Bishops questioned yet again.....
    « Reply #20 on: February 08, 2017, 07:53:28 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Special thanks to Ladislaus, TKGS and others who have taken the time to reply to this post in true Catholic charity.....I am convinced that the Thuc lineage is in fact valid (and I do, btw, attend a chapel in Paulsboro NJ that has 2 Thuc priests- One from Carmona lineage, the other Delauries)....


    I believe both youtube clips  (Mario's excellent refutation, and the Cekada v Jenkins debate from 2002) settle the issue and have convinced me of the Thuc Line being valid. That said, I do believe that Father Jenkins has made some great arguments that certainly should not be taken lightly....I would (as virtually all Trad Catholics) not follow anything from Thuc with the exception of DeLauries and Carmona/Zamona lineage.....


    On a brighter note regarding WCB Ohio video series, I have learned so much from watching both the new clips and the ones from the early 90's; they are fascinating for me, especially the ones with then Father Kelly and Father Sanborn. Father Jenkins is truly intelligent and explains the faith very clearly.....I wish that there was not this divisive factor in play regarding certain (mainly SSPV) Trad clergy refusing to acknowledge Thuc priests/bishops.....thanks again to all who wrote a reply

    Offline Matto

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6882
    • Reputation: +3852/-406
    • Gender: Male
    • Love God and Play, Do Good Work and Pray
    Validity of Thuc Bishops questioned yet again.....
    « Reply #21 on: February 08, 2017, 08:36:47 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well if Hobson is lying about Thuc admitting to withholding the intention, then the other accusations in my mind would not make his consecrations invalid. There are accusations that he did some questionable things, like the Palma de Troya consecrations or the consecrating of an open ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, but I do not think any of those things would make his consecrations invalid. I do not believe that he was so crazy or senile that he couldn't consecrate properly.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline ranlare

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 255
    • Reputation: +38/-105
    • Gender: Male
    Validity of Thuc Bishops questioned yet again.....
    « Reply #22 on: February 09, 2017, 02:44:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!3
  • Bishop Thuc Admits to Simulating Yet Again

    This admission by Bishop Thuc naturally gives rise to a follow-up question: If he admitted to doing it once, has he done it more than once? When he laid his hands on these various men of doubtful reputation, did he withhold his intention of conferring the Sacrament of Orders upon them? He says he did:

    “So after the questionable ordinations [Palmar de Troya], Bishop Ngo-Dinh-Thuc renounced his actions and published a letter saying that the ‘orders’ he had conferred were null and void because he had withheld all intention of conveying orders to the Palmar de Troya sect.” (Angelus Magazine, June 1982 edition - emphasis supplied)

    So we now have a second and independent source citing yet another admission from Bishop Thuc in which he stated that he simulated the Sacraments of the Church, with the end result being that at least 5 of his 15 so-called consecrations were certainly invalid, null and void; because by his own admission Bishop Thuc intentionally botched them.

    But, are these two statements true? Did Bishop Thuc in fact fake a “mass” and did he withhold his intention when conferring consecration? These are the questions the supporters of Bishop Thuc immediately raise as they impulsively jump to his defense. But if we are to apply the very same standard that the supporters of Bishop Thuc use in trying to defend the validity of his acts, i.e., the credibility of witnesses (in this case, two of the three witnesses are the very ones they themselves most often rely upon - Hiller and Heller), then one must accept the testimony just cited as factual evidence of the truth. If there was rebuttal evidence to be found, that would be one thing, but there is no rebuttal evidence to be found anywhere. This absence alone speaks volumes.

    In the normal course of events, if any bishop was falsely charged with such a serious crime as simulating the Sacraments of the Church, one would expect a very loud and vocal denial of the accusations, followed by immediate demands for correction and retraction. Perhaps a defamation suit might even be in order. But in the case of Bishop Thuc, the record is absolutely silent. The article in the Angelus magazine was published two and one-half years before his death, and yet there is not a peep of protest against it to be found anywhere. And the publication of the Angelus article is not the only instance of a mooted Bishop Thuc.

    Before Anthony Cekada was “pro-Thuc,” he was “anti-Thuc,” and he published a highly critical article against Bishop Thuc entitled “Two Bishops in Every Garage.” In this article, published two years before Bishop Thuc’s death, he charges that Bishop Thuc “simulated the celebration of Mass – simulation of a sacrament.” And yet again, nothing from Bishop Thuc - just more silence. Where are the denials and demands for retraction for the serious accusation against him found in this article? The fact of the matter is that there are none. And why not? Because in all probability, Bishop Thuc knew that this article and the one found in the Angelus magazine were both factual and correct. He had indeed simulated the Sacraments of the Church. After all, how could he deny it, when he had already admitted to it in the presence of witnesses?

    But no matter what angle you view this from; that is, Bishop Thuc really did void these acts by withholding his necessary Sacramental intention, or that Bishop Thuc just made those statements to get himself out of a pickle, the end result is the same – his integrity as a trustworthy minister of the Sacraments of the Church has been ruined. His conduct has come short of the minimum standard of moral certainty required by the Church for accepting the validity of the Sacraments conferred by him – most especially in the area of episcopal consecrations.
    "More souls go to Hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason." -Our Lady of Fatima, to Jacinta Marto


    Offline ranlare

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 255
    • Reputation: +38/-105
    • Gender: Male
    Validity of Thuc Bishops questioned yet again.....
    « Reply #23 on: February 09, 2017, 03:04:01 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • I had lunch with a few priests who were discussing Thuc, before the main entrees were served at the Olive Garden, and one of the priests, who knew Thuc before he was kidnapped and died, commented specifically on the bogus Guérard des Lauriers "consecration". The priest said he directly asked several questions to Thuc, (whom he said was clearly not in his right mind) surrounding the event, and the impoverished Thuc confided he never new des Lauriers at all when he "consecrated" him, but was told he should by some Germans who, "were very generous to him..." (with money/simony)?

    "More souls go to Hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason." -Our Lady of Fatima, to Jacinta Marto

    Offline Recusant Sede

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 313
    • Reputation: +155/-120
    • Gender: Male
    Validity of Thuc Bishops questioned yet again.....
    « Reply #24 on: February 09, 2017, 05:38:30 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • To confect a valid sacrament three things are necessary, matter, form and intention. When the proper matter and form are used the intention is *always* presumed. Only when there is a *positive* doubt can one doubt the validity of a sacrament.

    The SSPV's case relies only on negative doubts not positive doubts, they should know better.


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18410
    • Reputation: +5724/-1975
    • Gender: Female
    Validity of Thuc Bishops questioned yet again.....
    « Reply #25 on: February 09, 2017, 05:44:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Something not right with that group in Ohio.  Stay away from them.
    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18410
    • Reputation: +5724/-1975
    • Gender: Female
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline ranlare

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 255
    • Reputation: +38/-105
    • Gender: Male
    Validity of Thuc Bishops questioned yet again.....
    « Reply #27 on: February 09, 2017, 06:47:42 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: ranlare
    I had lunch with a few priests who were discussing Thuc, before the main entrees were served at the Olive Garden, and one of the priests, who knew Thuc before he was kidnapped and died, commented specifically on the bogus Guérard des Lauriers "consecration". The priest said he directly asked several questions to Thuc, (whom he said was clearly not in his right mind) surrounding the event, and the impoverished Thuc confided he never new des Lauriers at all when he "consecrated" him, but was told he should by some Germans who, "were very generous to him..." (with money/simony)?



    Typo, my bad:

    "... and the impoverished Thuc confided he never knew des Lauriers at all when he "consecrated" him..."
    "More souls go to Hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason." -Our Lady of Fatima, to Jacinta Marto

    Offline nctradcath

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 491
    • Reputation: +272/-99
    • Gender: Male
    Validity of Thuc Bishops questioned yet again.....
    « Reply #28 on: February 09, 2017, 06:49:15 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ranlare is posting nonsense. Anyone can get a hold of Father Francis Miller who lived with Thuc to get a true story about the man.

    Offline insidebaseball

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 244
    • Reputation: +125/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Validity of Thuc Bishops questioned yet again.....
    « Reply #29 on: February 09, 2017, 07:13:42 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This tread was only created to sow confusion.  Evertime Catholics turn up the heat on the "fake" church some unknown poster tries to divide the remaining flocks.  Solutionless controversy.  Father Jenkings won't place himself under B. Kelly so he must hedging his "doubts".