Author Topic: Validity of the Novus Ordo Mass (Read 2726 times)

AnonymousCatholic · « **on:** March 27, 2016, 08:08:12 PM »

I am blessed to be able to attend a church that remains loyal to the Church and is still extremely traditional, which allows me to not have to worry about the validity of the mass. But I do question the validity of the new, modern and trendy Novus Ordo types (i.e. altar girls, Eucharist being distributed by non-ordained people, etc).

So the question is whether or not the new and trendy Novus Ordo churches have valid mass and Sacraments?

Matto · « **Reply #1 on:** March 27, 2016, 08:30:12 PM »

Sedevacantists say that the Novus Ordo is invalid because they say the new rites of ordination and consecration are invalid. SSPX says they are usually valid and even the resistance says they are usually valid, but some of the SSPX supporters among the laity that I know doubt the validity of the Novus Ordo and do not want to go to Mass said by a priest ordained in the Novus Ordo and not conditionally ordained by a traditional Bishop.

AnonymousCatholic · « **Reply #2 on:** March 27, 2016, 08:43:38 PM »

Quote from: Matto

Sedevacantists say that the Novus Ordo is invalid because they say the new rites of ordination and consecration are invalid. SSPX says they are usually valid and even the resistance says they are usually valid, but some of the SSPX supporters among the laity that I know doubt the validity of the Novus Ordo and do not want to go to Mass said by a priest ordained in the Novus Ordo and not conditionally ordained by a traditional Bishop.

So assuming the Priest was validly ordained would the Eucharist be valid if it was distributed by someone other than the priest? Or if they were using altar girls?

Matto · « **Reply #3 on:** March 27, 2016, 08:59:57 PM »

Quote from: AnonymousCatholic

So assuming the Priest was validly ordained would the Eucharist be valid if it was distributed by someone other than the priest? Or if they were using altar girls?

I am not an expert but I believe the important thing is that the words of consecration are correct. Other abuses like eucharistic monsters or altar girls would not make the Mass invalid. Some people believe that the translations of the words of consecration that said "for all" instead of "for many" were enough to make the consecration invalid but I am not enough of an expert to know if that is truly the case.

TKGS · « **Reply #4 on:** March 27, 2016, 09:19:30 PM »

Quote from: Matto

Sedevacantists say that the Novus Ordo is invalid because they say the new rites of ordination and consecration are invalid.

Let's be clear. This has been explained many, many times, but certain people just can't get it through their heads. I used to think it was an innocent misunderstanding, but I am beginning to think that it is a malicious way to paint all sedevacantists in a desired light for dishonorable purposes.

Sedevacantism means one thing and one thing only. The current claimant to the papacy, Jorge Bergoglio is not a true pope. There is no other issue that one can pin on "sedevacantists".

What Matto says does certainly apply to many (I'd even be willing to say most) sedevacantists, but it is most definitely NOT true of all sedevacantists. This sedevacantist does not understand why the new rite of orders for priests would be invalid. At most, it is doubtful. The new rite of orders for bishops, on the other hand, is, I am convinced, invalid. Thus, a priest ordained in any rite by a bishop consecrated in the new rite, remains a layman. His Mass would never be valid. I know sedevacantists, however, who completely disagree with me.

Archbishop Lefebvre, in his Open Letter to Confused Catholics, was very clear in saying that the Conciliar seminaries are so deficient in teaching seminarians that there is less and less assurance that Novus Ordo priests are capable of having the proper intention necessary to produce a valid Novus Ordo regardless of any other factors. This was the reason he felt it necessary to continue to operate seminaries for the SSPX.

While the New SSPX may say that it is valid, it is clear they do so because Bishop Fellay is seeking re-integration with the Vatican and not because he follows the founder of the Society. This is evidenced by the fact that the SSPX used to require conditional ordination of any Novus Ordo priest who wanted to work with the SSPX but no longer does so.

I don't know what people in the Resistance think.

TKGS · « **Reply #5 on:** March 27, 2016, 09:24:26 PM »

Quote from: Matto

Quote from: AnonymousCatholic
So assuming the Priest was validly ordained would the Eucharist be valid if it was distributed by someone other than the priest? Or if they were using altar girls?

I am not an expert but I believe the important thing is that the words of consecration are correct. Other abuses like eucharistic monsters or altar girls would not make the Mass invalid.

This is correct. Who distributes Communion cannot invalidate what is already the true Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. It can only encourage impiety toward the Blessed Sacrament (whether it is valid or not).

Frankly, however, validity is not the only concern when it comes to the Novus Ordo. The Novus Ordo teaches impiety, and its priests teach the people to commit sin both by their actions and by their sermons. It should always be avoided like the plague.

AnonymousCatholic · « **Reply #6 on:** March 27, 2016, 09:33:00 PM »

Quote from: TKGS

Quote from: Matto
Quote from: AnonymousCatholic
So assuming the Priest was validly ordained would the Eucharist be valid if it was distributed by someone other than the priest? Or if they were using altar girls?

I am not an expert but I believe the important thing is that the words of consecration are correct. Other abuses like eucharistic monsters or altar girls would not make the Mass invalid.

This is correct. Who distributes Communion cannot invalidate what is already the true Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. It can only encourage impiety toward the Blessed Sacrament (whether it is valid or not).

Frankly, however, validity is not the only concern when it comes to the Novus Ordo. The Novus Ordo teaches impiety, and its priests teach the people to commit sin both by their actions and by their sermons. It should always be avoided like the plague.

So in a situation where the only options are no mass or Novus Ordo mass it would be prudent to stay home? Or would it be better to simply go for Communion?

Matto · « **Reply #7 on:** March 27, 2016, 09:45:06 PM »

Quote from: AnonymousCatholic

So in a situation where the only options are no mass or Novus Ordo mass it would be prudent to stay home? Or would it be better to simply go for Communion?

That is a tough question. I try to avoid the Novus Ordo but I do have other options. If I had no other option I think I would stay home, but I can understand why one would go, especially if one thinks it is valid (I have doubts about that).

clare · « **Reply #8 on:** March 28, 2016, 03:40:12 AM »

Quote from: AnonymousCatholic

Quote from: Matto
Sedevacantists say that the Novus Ordo is invalid because they say the new rites of ordination and consecration are invalid. SSPX says they are usually valid and even the resistance says they are usually valid, but some of the SSPX supporters among the laity that I know doubt the validity of the Novus Ordo and do not want to go to Mass said by a priest ordained in the Novus Ordo and not conditionally ordained by a traditional Bishop.

So assuming the Priest was validly ordained would the Eucharist be valid if it was distributed by someone other than the priest? Or if they were using altar girls?

Those things wouldn't invalidate the consecration, abuses though they are. Of course, a priest's willingness to use them might indicate a defective intention, I guess.

Stubborn · « **Reply #9 on:** March 28, 2016, 04:54:29 AM »

Quote from: AnonymousCatholic

Quote from: TKGS
Quote from: Matto
Quote from: AnonymousCatholic
So assuming the Priest was validly ordained would the Eucharist be valid if it was distributed by someone other than the priest? Or if they were using altar girls?

I am not an expert but I believe the important thing is that the words of consecration are correct. Other abuses like eucharistic monsters or altar girls would not make the Mass invalid.

This is correct. Who distributes Communion cannot invalidate what is already the true Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. It can only encourage impiety toward the Blessed Sacrament (whether it is valid or not).

Frankly, however, validity is not the only concern when it comes to the Novus Ordo. The Novus Ordo teaches impiety, and its priests teach the people to commit sin both by their actions and by their sermons. It should always be avoided like the plague.

So in a situation where the only options are no mass or Novus Ordo mass it would be prudent to stay home? Or would it be better to simply go for Communion?

If that is the choice, then stay home, do not compromise! We do not attend the NO service because it is displeasing to God, it is the sacrifice of Cain and we want nothing to do with it. We treat it like a prot service because when compared to that which it replaced, that is what it is.

Better to show God where you stand, against the new mass, and give Him a reason to take care of you by providing for you a true Mass to go to.

cassini · « **Reply #10 on:** March 28, 2016, 05:05:45 AM »

A 'valid Mass' is one where the bread and wine change into the body and blood of Jesus at the consecration.

I have read reports that many, some say over 50% of NO priests do not believe in the Real Presence. If one of these say the Mass it is invalid.
This means there is not a NO Mass that can be guaranteed a valid Mass. that is the problem.

Priests saying the Tridentine Mass, one would accept, all believe in transubstantiation, thus guaranteeing a valid Mass.

Arvinger · « **Reply #11 on:** March 28, 2016, 05:15:55 AM »

Quote from: Matto

Sedevacantists say that the Novus Ordo is invalid because they say the new rites of ordination and consecration are invalid. SSPX says they are usually valid and even the resistance says they are usually valid, but some of the SSPX supporters among the laity that I know doubt the validity of the Novus Ordo and do not want to go to Mass said by a priest ordained in the Novus Ordo and not conditionally ordained by a traditional Bishop.

The biggest problem I have with the position that the new rites of ordination and episcopal conecration are invalid is that the apostolic succession would have ceased (this is also the problem with sedevacantism in general). If the new rite of episcopal consecration is invalid, there is no bishop in the world with ordinary jurisdiction (all the bishops of Pope Pius XII are retired, while the bishops who were consecrated during pontificates of John XXIII and Paul VI but before introduction of the new rite were following anti-Popes according to sedevacantists, and I'm not sure how many of them are left). In other words, the apostolic succession has ceased. This is why I think that the new rites of ordination and episcopal consecration are probably valid, even though they certainly do not express the sacrificial power of priesthood and power of Episcopacy as explicitly as the traditional rites.

Stubborn · « **Reply #12 on:** March 28, 2016, 05:29:10 AM »

Neither validity nor lack thereof is the issue. Assisting at the sacrifice of Cain, a service which is certainly displeasing to God, is the issue.

TKGS · « **Reply #13 on:** March 28, 2016, 06:12:23 AM »

Quote from: AnonymousCatholic

Quote from: TKGS
Quote from: Matto
Quote from: AnonymousCatholic
So assuming the Priest was validly ordained would the Eucharist be valid if it was distributed by someone other than the priest? Or if they were using altar girls?

I am not an expert but I believe the important thing is that the words of consecration are correct. Other abuses like eucharistic monsters or altar girls would not make the Mass invalid.

This is correct. Who distributes Communion cannot invalidate what is already the true Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. It can only encourage impiety toward the Blessed Sacrament (whether it is valid or not).

Frankly, however, validity is not the only concern when it comes to the Novus Ordo. The Novus Ordo teaches impiety, and its priests teach the people to commit sin both by their actions and by their sermons. It should always be avoided like the plague.

So in a situation where the only options are no mass or Novus Ordo mass it would be prudent to stay home? Or would it be better to simply go for Communion?

The purpose of Mass is not to receive Communion. The purpose of Mass is to worship God in the way He wishes to be worshiped. The Novus Ordo was designed as a Protestant Last Supper service. It is not a Holy Sacrifice. If there is no True Mass available for one to attend offered by a certainly valid Catholic priest, one should stay at home and pray a fifteen decade rosary in lieu of assisting at Mass. One should check a credible source for a Catholic chapel such as:
http://www.ecclesia.luxvera.org/Directory-USA.html
and travel to one of them when possible. God does not require the impossible, so if it is not possible to assist at Mass there is not obligation to do so.

poche · « **Reply #14 on:** March 29, 2016, 12:05:58 AM »

Quote from: AnonymousCatholic

I am blessed to be able to attend a church that remains loyal to the Church and is still extremely traditional, which allows me to not have to worry about the validity of the mass. But I do question the validity of the new, modern and trendy Novus Ordo types (i.e. altar girls, Eucharist being distributed by non-ordained people, etc).

So the question is whether or not the new and trendy Novus Ordo churches have valid mass and Sacraments?

Archbishop Lefebvre recognized the validity of the Novus Ordo mass. Both Bihop Williamson and Fr Pfeiffer have said that it is ok to go to the Novus Ordo mass.