Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Validity of NO orders  (Read 5627 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Plenus Venter

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1508
  • Reputation: +1233/-97
  • Gender: Male
Re: Validity of NO orders
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2023, 03:10:35 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I agree that NREC is almost certainly invalid.  So, even if you hold out some hope that the butchery of priestly ordination is valid, the number of priests ordained by bishops who had been consecrated before NREC is rapidly dwindling as time goes on.

    To me, the fact that the ordination only made what appears to be a "trivial" change, in so far as it removes a single two-letter word in Latin, and since I believe that enemy infiltrators are behind these destructive changes, this only increases my suspicion that this was done on purpose with the intent to invalidate.  WHY BOTHER with this little word at all?  It's not as though its omission somehow "modernizes" the rite and brings some "fresh perspective" to it.  Pius XII when writing about the essential forms of these rites describes the essence of the form as invoking the Holy Spirit with a specific effect in mind, i.e. that they must invoke the Holy Spirit and call out the effect of that invocation, i.e. for the Holy Spirit to do [whatever].

    Old Rite.  Renew in them the spirit of holiness (the Holy Spirit) SO THAT (the "ut") they might become priests.  Invoking the Holy Spirit to be sent in order to make the men priests.

    New Rite.  Renew in them the spirit of holiness.  May they become priests.  This is not requesting that the Holy Spirit come down on them to make them priests.  It's two separate requests.  May the Holy Spirit come down on them.  May they become priests (addressed generally to God as a prayer).  There's no linkage between the action of the Holy Spirit being that which has the effect of making them priests.  Holy Spirit is involved in every Sacrament, and in the general state of a soul being in a state of sanctifying grace.

    "May they receive the Holy Spirit so that the Holy Spirit might make them priests."

    vs.

    "May they receive the Holy Spirit.  May they become priests (through some unspecified mechanism)."

    This severs the concept that Pius XII called out as essential to the validity, the invocation of the Holy Spirit to a specified effect.
    Archbishop Lefebvre, I think, would be better placed to make a correct judgement. In him we have a prelate clearly raised up by God to lead us in this crisis. He was very well aware of the revolution taking place. He opposed it in the Council and afterwards, obviously. He trained in Rome, was a doctor of theology and philosophy, taught in seminaries most of his life, conferred the priesthood more often than most bishops. He was absolutely certain of the validity of the new rite of ordination of priests. He did not always conditionally re-ordain. Interstingly, Bishop Williamson in his EC that I posted on the first page of this thread says this: The new Form in Latin is, if anything, stronger for validity than the old Form in Latin (by the « et » instead of an « ut »), but vernacular translations need to be checked to make sure that they clearly express the grace of the priesthood to be conferred.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2896/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #46 on: March 11, 2023, 04:39:55 AM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • Archbishop Lefebvre, I think, would be better placed to make a correct judgement. In him we have a prelate clearly raised up by God to lead us in this crisis. He was very well aware of the revolution taking place. He opposed it in the Council and afterwards, obviously. He trained in Rome, was a doctor of theology and philosophy, taught in seminaries most of his life, conferred the priesthood more often than most bishops. He was absolutely certain of the validity of the new rite of ordination of priests. He did not always conditionally re-ordain. Interstingly, Bishop Williamson in his EC that I posted on the first page of this thread says this: The new Form in Latin is, if anything, stronger for validity than the old Form in Latin (by the « et » instead of an « ut »), but vernacular translations need to be checked to make sure that they clearly express the grace of the priesthood to be conferred.


    I find it interesting that a trend has developed in the R&R crowd. They tend to justify the R&R position by lowering the authority and the scope of infallibility of the Pope and the Papacy, while simultaneously increasing the “authority” (he was a retired bishop) of Archbishop Lefebvre. Remember, no matter how good of a person he was, he was not and never was infallible and he did make mistakes and wavered on certain issues throughout his years.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1508
    • Reputation: +1233/-97
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #47 on: March 11, 2023, 04:52:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • I find it interesting that a trend has developed in the R&R crowd. They tend to justify the R&R position by lowering the authority and the scope of infallibility of the Pope and the Papacy, while simultaneously increasing the “authority” (he was a retired bishop) of Archbishop Lefebvre. Remember, no matter how good of a person he was, he was not and never was infallible and he did make mistakes and wavered on certain issues throughout his years.
    Archbishop Lefebvre followed what Vatican I taught on Infallibility, he did not lower it. He was not infallible, just faithful. Any infallibility came from his fidelity to Church teaching. You want to make the Church say something about Infallibility that She doesn't. You really must read the docuмents again, it is so clear. Read all the manuals after the Council which explain it, same thing. This should not even be a debate.

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11311
    • Reputation: +6285/-1087
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #48 on: March 11, 2023, 06:53:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I agree that NREC is almost certainly invalid.  So, even if you hold out some hope that the butchery of priestly ordination is valid, the number of priests ordained by bishops who had been consecrated before NREC is rapidly dwindling as time goes on.

    To me, the fact that the ordination only made what appears to be a "trivial" change, in so far as it removes a single two-letter word in Latin, and since I believe that enemy infiltrators are behind these destructive changes, this only increases my suspicion that this was done on purpose with the intent to invalidate.  WHY BOTHER with this little word at all?  It's not as though its omission somehow "modernizes" the rite and brings some "fresh perspective" to it.  Pius XII when writing about the essential forms of these rites describes the essence of the form as invoking the Holy Spirit with a specific effect in mind, i.e. that they must invoke the Holy Spirit and call out the effect of that invocation, i.e. for the Holy Spirit to do [whatever].

    Old Rite.  Renew in them the spirit of holiness (the Holy Spirit) SO THAT (the "ut") they might become priests.  Invoking the Holy Spirit to be sent in order to make the men priests.

    New Rite.  Renew in them the spirit of holiness.  May they become priests.  This is not requesting that the Holy Spirit come down on them to make them priests.  It's two separate requests.  May the Holy Spirit come down on them.  May they become priests (addressed generally to God as a prayer).  There's no linkage between the action of the Holy Spirit being that which has the effect of making them priests.  Holy Spirit is involved in every Sacrament, and in the general state of a soul being in a state of sanctifying grace.

    "May they receive the Holy Spirit so that the Holy Spirit might make them priests."

    vs.

    "May they receive the Holy Spirit.  May they become priests (through some unspecified mechanism)."

    This severs the concept that Pius XII called out as essential to the validity, the invocation of the Holy Spirit to a specified effect.
    Yes, I recall your mentioning this in the past.  I would add that they must have known that they didn't need to change it at all since invalidating Episcopal Consecrations would already create invalid priests.

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4569
    • Reputation: +5275/-448
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #49 on: March 11, 2023, 07:08:52 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think that argument is flawed and very easily countered, Mithrandylan, by the fact that a legitimate Pope is not free to impose illegitimate laws. He is not a law unto himself, he is the Vicar Of Christ. He has no power to revolutionise the Sacraments. This is no organic development along the lines described by St Vincent of Lerins. As The First Vatican Council taught in the Constitution Pastor Aeternus "The Holy Ghost was promised to the successors of Peter, not, that by his revelation, they might make known new doctrine, but that by his assistance they might guard... the deposit of faith". That is why, all these years, most Traditionalists of the R&R persuasion, including ABL and his Society, have held doubts about the rite, without denying the legitimacy of the Pope.
    .
    There is such a thing as the disciplinary infallibility of the Church. It refers to the Church being protected from imposing something inherently defective on the universal church. A strictly invalid rite of making bishops would be, in my opinion, a plain violation of the Church's disciplinary infallibility. It is related to the Pope inasmuch as all infallibility ultimately springs from the pope. The absence of a pope is a sufficient theological explanation for how we get strictly invalid rites of sacraments. 
    .
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4961
    • Reputation: +1928/-389
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #50 on: March 11, 2023, 02:06:38 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • To Miser Peccator: Prophecy has it, that the Sacrifice of the Mass (continual Precious Blood in all the sacraments) will come to an end, for 3 and a half years.  No one said that why Christ found "Church" would fail. But what we see, is not HIS CHRUCH but that of man.

    Prophecy has it, that Rome will return to paganism, and it certainly appears that way, by the fruits.

    There are no Holy Orders in New Order.  Christ instituted the sacraments and man can not change or renew a Truth, that which is infallible.

    It will take God to put His kingdom back  on earth again.

    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1508
    • Reputation: +1233/-97
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #51 on: March 12, 2023, 06:23:38 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .
    There is such a thing as the disciplinary infallibility of the Church. It refers to the Church being protected from imposing something inherently defective on the universal church. A strictly invalid rite of making bishops would be, in my opinion, a plain violation of the Church's disciplinary infallibility. It is related to the Pope inasmuch as all infallibility ultimately springs from the pope. The absence of a pope is a sufficient theological explanation for how we get strictly invalid rites of sacraments.
    .
    Thanks Mith. Yes, I know where you are coming from.

    The issue is this: Doctrinal Infallibility of the Pope/Church has been clearly defined by the Church. What you term disciplinary infallibility has not. This is what I see as the problem all too often with many Catholics of the sedevacantist persuasion: taking teachings that are not infallible and drawing conclusions that are therefore not certain which have extreme consequences: 1. The Pope is infallible in matters of discipline which affect the liturgical practice of the Church (problem: not clearly defined). 2. But the New Mass and new rites of sacraments are invalid (if such were the case). 3. Therefore the Pope cannot be a true Pope. The conclusion is not valid, because the major premise is not Catholic doctrine.

    I don't think you will find in any discussion of the Church's jurisdictional/disciplinary authority that the Pope may, with infallible authority, revolutionise the sacraments.

    Archbishop Lefebvre was not infallible, I grant you that. But just stop and think for a moment who he was. It is inconceivable that this eminent prelate and theologian did not understand the Catholic doctrine of the Papacy. Doctrinal and Jurisdictional Authority. Direct and Indirect objects of Infallibility. If the matter were as simple and clear cut as some Sedevacantists hold, it would have been a very simple decision for the Archbishop to make. But it's not that simple, because it is not an infallible teaching of the Church in the way the Sedes present it.

    Perhaps the following passage from St Robert Bellarmine is relevant:

    On The Roman Pontiff, Bk IV, Ch XV: A Question is Proposed, Whether the Supreme Pontiff has Jurisdiction that is Truly Coercive, so that he can Make Laws which Oblige in Conscience... So far we have proven that the Supreme Pontiff is a judge of controversies which arise in the Church and that he is certain and infallible in his judgment. Now follows the Third question: Whether the Supreme Pontiff can compel the faithful to believe or do that which he has judged... it must be noted that we do not speak of the Pope as a temporal prince... now we only treat of the Pontiff as he is the Pontiff of the whole Catholic Church. Moreover, we ask whether he may have true power over all the faithful in spiritual matters... so also the Pope can make Ecclesiastical laws truly obliging in conscience as well as punish transgressors with spiritual penalties at least, such as excommunication, suspension, interdict, irregularity, etc... At present we are only discussing the Ecclesiastical, whose end is eternal life. Secondly, it must be noted that we are only treating on just laws. Unjust laws are not properly called laws... Moreover, four conditions are required for a law to be just. 1) On the side of the end, that it is ordained to the common good... 2) On the side of the agent, that it should be from one having authority... 3) On the side of the matter, that it should not forbid virtue, nor command a vice. 4) On the side of form, that a law should be clearly promulgated and constituted in a measure and order due to it so that a law would preserve that proportion in the distribution of honours and imposition of burdens which subjects have in rank toward the common good. For if the Pontiff would command that boys as well as grown men, the strong and the weak, healthy and sick should fast during Lent, the law would be unjust. Likewise, if he would establish that only the rich and nobles could be admitted to the Episcopacy, but not the poor or commoners even if they be otherwise more learned and better, it would be absolutely unjust...But even if an unjust law is not a law and from its force does not oblige in conscience, nevertheless, a distinction must be made concerning laws. For unjust laws by reason of the matter, that is, they are contrary to divine, natural or even positive law, do not only not oblige, but they even ought to not be observed in any way, according to what we read in Acts V: "It is proper to obey God more than men." Jerome, Augustine and Bernard also teach that...  St Robert goes on to say that unjust laws on the side of the end/agent/form should sometimes be observed if required to avoid scandal.

    A Pope can promulgate an unjust law that should not be followed. Will it be claimed that this is not the case when it comes to the sacraments? On what infallible authority? Can the Pope mangle the formula of a sacrament that has come down from apostolic times, such a flagrant abuse of his charge? If he were to do so, would he by that fact lose the Papacy, or rather, should he be resisted, and his law not observed? Or does it just prove he never was the Pope in the first place? It's a bit like the heresy question, but please let's not start on that again... We simply don't have definitive Church teaching on these complicated questions, so we ought not to pontificate.

    You say, "The absence of a pope is a sufficient theological explanation for how we get strictly invalid rites of sacraments." I say, maybe, but not necessarily. A better and more prudent explanation could be the presence of a true Pope promulgating an illegitimate, unjust law "contrary to divine, natural or even positive law" that does "not only not oblige, but... even ought to not be observed in any way, according to what we read in Acts V: It is proper to obey God more than men".

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4569
    • Reputation: +5275/-448
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #52 on: March 12, 2023, 10:12:42 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So Plentus, would you say that since the Church has never solemnly defined that she can only publish and impose valid sacramental rites, we must leave open the possibility that she can publish and impose invalid sacramental rites?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2312
    • Reputation: +867/-144
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #53 on: March 12, 2023, 11:13:40 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So Plentus, would you say that since the Church has never solemnly defined that she can only publish and impose valid sacramental rites, we must leave open the possibility that she can publish and impose invalid sacramental rites?

    I know at least two doctors of the Church, St. Alphonsus Ligouri and St. Frances De Sales, who taught that the sacrifice of the Mass would cease during the time of the Antichrist, which occurs during the period when the abomination of desolation is set up. 

    We had a period of about 40 years where the sacrifice "ceased" in almost every Catholic Church that celebrated the Novus Ordo in vernacular translations which substituted the words of man - "for all" - in place of the words of God - "for many" - in the false attempt at consecrating the wine into the Blood of Our Lord of at Mass. 

    So, while Sedes will argue that the "Church" didn't "publish and impose invalid sacramental rites," they certainly were imposed and celebrated in Catholic Churches where hitherto the true Mass was celebrated, and therefore "ceased" in those thousands of churches. The cessation was not imposed by secular authorities but by the hierarchy, legitimate or illegitimate, of the Church. 

    So, I say it's not only a "possibility" that the Church did this, she did. Just as if, say, Obama were an illegitimate president of the United States - by lacking true citizenship as required by the Constitution - but during his "presidency" ordered the bombing of some foreign nation. It would still be the United States, having elected an installed an "illegitimate" president in the White house and given him control over its military, and its military that did the bombing, would it not?

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46159
    • Reputation: +27167/-5016
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #54 on: March 12, 2023, 01:37:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • So, while Sedes will argue that the "Church" didn't "publish and impose invalid sacramental rites," they certainly were imposed and celebrated in Catholic Churches where hitherto the true Mass was celebrated, and therefore "ceased" in those thousands of churches. The cessation was not imposed by secular authorities but by the hierarchy, legitimate or illegitimate, of the Church.

    So, I say it's not only a "possibility" that the Church did this, she did.

    This doesn't make much sense to me.  If the "hierarchy" were "illegitimate" then how is it that "the Church" did this?  No, it's not possible for the Church, i.e. for a LEGITIMATE pope, to promulgate invalid or even doubtful rite for the Sacraments.  That would be tantamount to a defection of the Church.  In fact, this consideration, that a legitimate pope could not promulgate invalid Sacraments, is what led Michael Davies to conclude the NO rites to be valid ... despite otherwise having been inclined to doubt them.  But all this begs the question that the NO papal claimants are legitimate.

    These questions about the validity of the new rites does in fact contribute to a feedback loop that leads people towards SVism.  If you hold the MAJOR that it's not possible for a legitimate pope to impose invalid rite, the more doubts you have about the rites, the more you also have to doubt the legitimacy of the papal claimants.  An implicit acceptance of this MAJOR is what drives a lot of R&R folks to reject any disputes regarding the validity of the new rites.

    MAJOR:  Legitimate pope cannot promulgate invalid rites.
    MINOR:  NO rites are invalid.
    CONCLUSION:  Popes who promulgated them and continue to endorse them are not legitimate.

    So you can question the MAJOR (as you and others have done) or you reject the Minor ... to avoid the SV position.  So the "anything but SVism" mindset is driving people to reject either the MAJOR or the MINOR above.

    For me, this is where this particular argument stands:

    MAJOR:  Legitimate pope cannot promulgate invalid rites.
    MINOR:  NO rites are doubful.
    CONCLUSION:  Legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants is doubtful.

    But this is one aspect of the doubt about their legitimacy, when taken together with other considerations, it's almost morally certain that the V2 papal claimans have not been legitimate popes.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46159
    • Reputation: +27167/-5016
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #55 on: March 12, 2023, 02:05:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The new Form in Latin is, if anything, stronger for validity than the old Form in Latin (by the « et » instead of an « ut »), but vernacular translations need to be checked to make sure that they clearly express the grace of the priesthood to be conferred.

    No, "et" is not "stronger".  "ut" clearly indicates that the ordination is the Sacramental effect from the invocation of the Holy Ghost.  Without it, these are two separate prayers.  "May the Holy Ghost descend upon him.  May he become a priest." (paraphrased).  Traditional Rite has it, "May the Holy Ghost descend upon him in order to make him a priest."  Those are significantly different prayers.  You could argue that this is implied in the newer version, but I submit that it's implied only because someone who's familiar with the Traditional predecessor of this prayer would READ this into it.  But if you knew nothing about the former version, you could clearly read this as invoking the Holy Ghost to PREPARE the individual for reception of the priesthood, and then asking for it to be conferred.  They are logically different constructs and therefore suffice to introduce at least a positive doubt.

    You seem to be just making this up that "et" is "stronger for validity".  Clearly the "ut" in Latin means something, a cause and effect relationship, which is simply not explicitly there in the new rite.

    I pray for A to cause B.
    I pray for A.  I pray for B.

    Logically two different things.  Ergo, positive doubt.  It's morally certain that this introduces positive doubt.


    Offline CatholicInAmerica

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 356
    • Reputation: +149/-51
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #56 on: March 12, 2023, 02:33:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, "et" is not "stronger".  "ut" clearly indicates that the ordination is the Sacramental effect from the invocation of the Holy Ghost.  Without it, these are two separate prayers.  "May the Holy Ghost descend upon him.  May he become a priest." (paraphrased).  Traditional Rite has it, "May the Holy Ghost descend upon him in order to make him a priest."  Those are significantly different prayers.  You could argue that this is implied in the newer version, but I submit that it's implied only because someone who's familiar with the Traditional predecessor of this prayer would READ this into it.  But if you knew nothing about the former version, you could clearly read this as invoking the Holy Ghost to PREPARE the individual for reception of the priesthood, and then asking for it to be conferred.  They are logically different constructs and therefore suffice to introduce at least a positive doubt.

    You seem to be just making this up that "et" is "stronger for validity".  Clearly the "ut" in Latin means something, a cause and effect relationship, which is simply not explicitly there in the new rite.

    I pray for A to cause B.
    I pray for A.  I pray for B.

    Logically two different things.  Ergo, positive doubt.  It's morally certain that this introduces positive doubt.
    100% agree lad. Even if +Williamson honestly believed the quote you replied to, why would he say it? Does he want people to go to NO priests? Why not just conditionally ordain (and re train the priest while you’re at it)? Who cares if the NREC and NRPO are valid? At the end of the day I personally believed that in a death situation, every Trad who “accepts” the NO orders would 100% rather have a traditional priest absolve them instead of a NO “priest”. Novus ordo orders now adays are just doubt compounded upon doubt. 
    Pope St. Pius X pray for us

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2312
    • Reputation: +867/-144
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #57 on: March 12, 2023, 02:46:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This doesn't make much sense to me.  If the "hierarchy" were "illegitimate" then how is it that "the Church" did this?  No, it's not possible for the Church, i.e. for a LEGITIMATE pope, to promulgate invalid or even doubtful rite for the Sacraments.  That would be tantamount to a defection of the Church.  In fact, this consideration, that a legitimate pope could not promulgate invalid Sacraments, is what led Michael Davies to conclude the NO rites to be valid ... despite otherwise having been inclined to doubt them.  But all this begs the question that the NO papal claimants are legitimate.

    These questions about the validity of the new rites does in fact contribute to a feedback loop that leads people towards SVism.  If you hold the MAJOR that it's not possible for a legitimate pope to impose invalid rite, the more doubts you have about the rites, the more you also have to doubt the legitimacy of the papal claimants.  An implicit acceptance of this MAJOR is what drives a lot of R&R folks to reject any disputes regarding the validity of the new rites.

    MAJOR:  Legitimate pope cannot promulgate invalid rites.
    MINOR:  NO rites are invalid.
    CONCLUSION:  Popes who promulgated them and continue to endorse them are not legitimate.

    So you can question the MAJOR (as you and others have done) or you reject the Minor ... to avoid the SV position.  So the "anything but SVism" mindset is driving people to reject either the MAJOR or the MINOR above.

    For me, this is where this particular argument stands:

    MAJOR:  Legitimate pope cannot promulgate invalid rites.
    MINOR:  NO rites are doubful.
    CONCLUSION:  Legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants is doubtful.

    But this is one aspect of the doubt about their legitimacy, when taken together with other considerations, it's almost morally certain that the V2 papal claimans have not been legitimate popes.

    You have the same problem. Actually, you have the problem, and I don't, since I am not arguing that the Church is now still indefectible in the sense taught by pre-V2 theologians: either that was never the true in their sense (Stubborn's view), or b) it was the true sense until the consummation of the age, when the divine commission of preaching the Gospel to the world has been fulfilled, and the necessity of a Church with a hierarchy that was a "governing body" has ceased. 

    As I said, you have the same problem: the Church defecting. This is because not only does indefectibility encompass a hierarchy teaching universally, and providing the means of sanctification, without error, but it also encompasses the necessity of a hierarchy, a living "governing body." You limit the indefectibility of the Church to teaching/sanctifying, but divorce it from its essential attribute of governing, having a governing body.

    So the major that destroys your position is this:

    MAJOR: the indefectibility of the Church requires a hierarchy, a governing body.

    The rest, of course, follows - you have no governing body, and "your" Church has defected as well as "mine."

    And I haven't even mentioned "visibility," which is also arguably, at least, another component part of the necessary governing body, according to some major, reliable theologians. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline CatholicInAmerica

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 356
    • Reputation: +149/-51
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #58 on: March 12, 2023, 02:59:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You have the same problem. Actually, you have the problem, and I don't, since I am not arguing that the Church is now still indefectible in the sense taught by pre-V2 theologians: either that was never the true in their sense (Stubborn's view), or b) it was the true sense until the consummation of the age, when the divine commission of preaching the Gospel to the world has been fulfilled, and the necessity of a Church with a hierarchy that was a "governing body" has ceased.

    As I said, you have the same problem: the Church defecting. This is because not only does indefectibility encompass a hierarchy teaching universally, and providing the means of sanctification, without error, but it also encompasses the necessity of a hierarchy, a living "governing body." You limit the indefectibility of the Church to teaching/sanctifying, but divorce it from its essential attribute of governing, having a governing body.

    So the major that destroys your position is this:

    MAJOR: the indefectibility of the Church requires a hierarchy, a governing body.

    The rest, of course, follows - you have no governing body, and "your" Church has defected as well as "mine."

    And I haven't even mentioned "visibility," which is also arguably, at least, another component part of the necessary governing body, according to some major, reliable theologians.

    You are making it seem as if the answer to the crisis is just a binary of options. You are excluding the possibility that you are incorrect and excluding that the answer has not yet been found. Ridiculous approach in my opinion, being that this crisis is unprecedented  and even the top theologians disagreed on what would happen in the case of heretical popes. 
    Pope St. Pius X pray for us

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46159
    • Reputation: +27167/-5016
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #59 on: March 12, 2023, 03:01:38 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • As I said, you have the same problem: the Church defecting. This is because not only does indefectibility encompass a hierarchy teaching universally, and providing the means of sanctification, without error, but it also encompasses the necessity of a hierarchy, a living "governing body." You limit the indefectibility of the Church to teaching/sanctifying, but divorce it from its essential attribute of governing, having a governing body.

    Not even close.  You reject the indefectibility of the Church.  Period.  And your nonsense about the Church not having a "governing body" has been refuted over and over again.  Your view of the Church as capable of promulgating evil and misleading the faithful is blasphemous and you've repeatedly been exposed as promoting Old Catholicism.  Papacy is protected by the Holy Spirit from harming and endangering souls.