Author Topic: VALIDITY OF ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ ORDINATIONS (Read 5005 times)

PetrusPrimus · « **on:** August 18, 2010, 10:12:44 AM »

Hi Everyone. I'm not sure if this has been answered or not, but I'd appreciate a link or a reply. A priest recently told me that he had evidence (or was convinced) that sodomites were not capable of receiving Holy Orders. I really can't see that on the basis of what I know. Am I missing something? I mean-- if someone who were an open sodomite was ordained, would they be a valid priest. If they became a bishop, would they be capable of transmitting Holy Orders. Obviously some flamers in Ohio make this a relevant question, as one of them has done some ordaining himself.

innocenza · « **Reply #1 on:** August 18, 2010, 11:50:13 AM »

FWIW There's a 'Fr. Trosch' living somewhere, with a site on the net at 'trosch.org', who has said that, according to 'developing theology' [but is there any such thing -- I wouldn't know], certain preexisting conditions, such as ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, make a legal ordination morally invalid.

But Fr. Trosch has some very far out, Catholically untenable, positions regard matters of the Faith. So my overall impression of him is that he is not trustworthy.

PetrusPrimus · « **Reply #2 on:** August 18, 2010, 03:12:11 PM »

Innocenza, I appreciate the reply. It wasn't Fr Trosch who told me this, but I did leave a message for the priest who said he discovered info from moral theology and canon law. Of course, if Fr T did have a case, he has a case, whether he is a nutjob or not. I would STILL like an intelligent discussion about jurisdiction-- we have had real practical problems accepting all newcomers as being on "our side".

Quote from: innocenza

FWIW There's a 'Fr. Trosch' living somewhere, with a site on the net at 'trosch.org', who has said that, according to 'developing theology' [but is there any such thing -- I wouldn't know], certain preexisting conditions, such as ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, make a legal ordination morally invalid.

But Fr. Trosch has some very far out, Catholically untenable, positions regard matters of the Faith. So my overall impression of him is that he is not trustworthy.

Caminus · « **Reply #3 on:** August 18, 2010, 03:19:08 PM »

The only way a Sacrament can be invalidated is through a defect of form, matter or intention. It is an old heresy to claim that the moral unworthiness of the minister or recipient can invalidate Sacraments.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #4 on:** August 18, 2010, 11:55:33 PM »

"If, under earlier Church laws, a layman guilty of sodomy can be deprived of the Holy Eucharist for up to 25 years or even till the end of his lfe, how is it possible that a similarly offending cleric or monk is let off with minor penances, and is judged worthy to not only receive the Holy Eucharist but consecrate the Sacred Mysteries? he [St. Peter Damian] asked. If the holy fathers ordained that sodomites should "pray in the company of demoniacs," how can such a cleric hope to rightly exercise his priestly office as a "mediator" between God and His people? Damian continued.

Later, Damian returned to this same theme and exclaimed, "For God's sake, why do you damnable sodomites persue the heights of ecclesiastical dignity with such fiery ambition?'

Elizabeth · « **Reply #5 on:** August 19, 2010, 12:11:01 AM »

from the 1961 Instruction Religiosorum institutio

"A candidate who shows himself certainly unable to observe religious and priestly chastity, either because of frequent sins against chastity or because of a sɛҳuąƖ bent of mind or excessive weakness of will, is not to be admitted to the minor seminary and much less, to the novitiate or to profession. If he has already been accepted but is not yet perpetually professed, then he should be sent away immediately or advised to withdraw, according to individual cases, no matter what point in his formation he has already reached. Should he be perpetually professed, he is to be barred absolutely and permanently from tonsure and the reception of any Order, especially Sacred Orders. If circuмstances should so demand, he shall be dismissed from the community, with due observance of the prescriptions of canon law. Consequently, any candidate who has a habit of solitary sins and who has not given well-founded hope that he can break this habit with a period of time to be determined prudently, is not to be admitted to the novitiate."

http://www.supportourdiocese.com/religiosorum_institutio.htm

innocenza · « **Reply #6 on:** August 19, 2010, 08:47:15 AM »

Thanking you for the citations, Elizabeth.

Regards,
Janet C.

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #7 on:** August 19, 2010, 08:57:01 AM »

Quote from: innocenza

Thanking you for the citations, Elizabeth.

Regards,
Janet C.

Nothing provided supports the claim that the moral unworthiness of the minister or recipient can invalidate Sacraments.

The citations were about fitness of candidates and clerics, not about the validity of their holy orders or their sacraments.

innocenza · « **Reply #8 on:** August 19, 2010, 08:57:44 AM »

Caminus,

If a person in mortal sin receives Holy Communion, he is guilty of the Body and Blood of Christ.

However, is that something other than 'invalidating' of the Sacrament?

Thank you.

Regards,
Janet C.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #9 on:** August 19, 2010, 09:02:29 AM »

Quote from: innocenza

Thanking you for the citations, Elizabeth.

Regards,
Janet C.

You are most welcome. The first was from Engel's book; please forgive the omission of page numbers.

There were huge problems with the clergy in the 1100's, also. (as you probably already knwo).

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #10 on:** August 19, 2010, 09:03:45 AM »

Janet C. wrote:

If a person in mortal sin receives Holy Communion, he is guilty of the Body and Blood of Christ.

However, is that something other than 'invalidating' of the Sacrament?

It does not invalidate the Sacrament which has already been confected before the reception of Holy Communion.

If a person receives Holy Communion in mortal sin, such a person commits a sacrilege. The only way this can happen is if Our Lord is being received due to a valid confection of the Sacrament.

innocenza · « **Reply #11 on:** August 19, 2010, 09:07:29 AM »

Thanks, R.C. I am learning, and have very far to go.

Regards,
Janet C.

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #12 on:** August 19, 2010, 09:08:20 AM »

Quote from: innocenza

Thanks, R.C. I am learning, and have very far to go.

Regards,
Janet C.

You're welcome. Best wishes.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #13 on:** August 19, 2010, 10:57:47 AM »

Quote from: Roman Catholic

Quote from: innocenza
Thanking you for the citations, Elizabeth.

Regards,
Janet C.

Nothing provided supports the claim that the moral unworthiness of the minister or recipient can invalidate Sacraments.

The citations were about fitness of candidates and clerics, not about the validity of their holy orders or their sacraments.

That is exactly what my Moral Theology book explains.

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #14 on:** August 19, 2010, 11:15:56 AM »

BTW, on the the title of this thread: there is no such thing as ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ ordinations. That wording is imprecise and does not make any sense.

It is like saying a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ Holy Communion, or a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ Baptism.

Ordination is ordination. The Sacrament of Holy Orders.

Ordination can (I am NOT saying should) be conferred on a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ person or by a homososɛҳuąƖ person.

But here is no such thing as ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ ordinations.