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Author Topic: Validity of Confessions  (Read 2947 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Validity of Confessions
« on: April 20, 2023, 03:15:04 PM »
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  • So here's a scenario to ponder (thought occurred to me on the thread about Confirmation ... though I've thought about this before).

    Let's say that I believe that Jorge is the Pope.  Now let's say that I have two chapels near me, one SSPX and the other Resistance (or Independent R&R of some kind ... not to mention SV alternatives).

    Can I receive valid absolution from the Resistance priest when I could just as well go to the SSPX priest?  SSPX priest has jurisdiction to validly absolve (from Pope Jorge).  But the Resistance priest does not.  Why is there a sufficient necessity there for me to go to a priest without jurisdiction when I could go to one that has it?  If I go to the Resistance priest without such necessity, would I validly receive absolution?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Validity of Confessions
    « Reply #1 on: April 20, 2023, 03:19:59 PM »
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  • Is the "necessity" broadly in place due to the general state of extreme Crisis in the Church or is it situational?

    That is the underlying question here.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Validity of Confessions
    « Reply #2 on: April 20, 2023, 03:28:46 PM »
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  • So here's a scenario to ponder (thought occurred to me on the thread about Confirmation ... though I've thought about this before).

    Let's say that I believe that Jorge is the Pope.  Now let's say that I have two chapels near me, one SSPX and the other Resistance (or Independent R&R of some kind ... not to mention SV alternatives).

    Can I receive valid absolution from the Resistance priest when I could just as well go to the SSPX priest?  SSPX priest has jurisdiction to validly absolve (from Pope Jorge).  But the Resistance priest does not.  Why is there a sufficient necessity there for me to go to a priest without jurisdiction when I could go to one that has it?  If I go to the Resistance priest without such necessity, would I validly receive absolution?



    According to the SSPX itself, it doesn't matter:

    "In brief, as long as the extreme necessity of the individual or the grave necessity of many demands it, one can lawfully, indeed, one must under pain of mortal sin do all that he is able to do validly in virtue of the power of order. The necessary jurisdiction is acquired at the request of souls. The 1917 Code of Canon Law (can. 2261, §§2,3) states that the faithful can "on account of any just cause" demand the sacraments from an excommunicated priest [whom the Church has deprived of jurisdiction] and at that time the one excommunicated, so requested, can administer them. Fr. Hugueny, O.P. remarks that "the demand [of the faithful] gives to the excommunicated priest the power of administering the sacraments."[30] This means that, in necessity, the exercise of the power of order to the full extent necessary is called into act not by the will of the hierarchical superior, but directly by the state of necessity. "The action otherwise prohibited... is rendered licit and permitted by the state of necessity...And Pope Innocent XI, cutting off every argument on the subject, establishes definitively that in necessity the Church supplies jurisdiction lacking even to heretical, infamous, and excommunicated vitandi priests."

    http://archives.sspx.org/1988_consecrations_study/1988_consecrations_theological_study_part_3.htm
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Validity of Confessions
    « Reply #3 on: April 20, 2023, 03:34:47 PM »
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  • Is the "necessity" broadly in place due to the general state of extreme Crisis in the Church or is it situational?

    That is the underlying question here.

    I recall Fr. Iscara telling me in the seminary that it doesn't matter if here and there, there is an isolated pocket of orthodoxy. You are not compelled to seek that pocket (but 21 years later, I do not recall what his rationale was).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Validity of Confessions
    « Reply #4 on: April 20, 2023, 03:57:58 PM »
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  • So here's a scenario to ponder (thought occurred to me on the thread about Confirmation ... though I've thought about this before).

    Let's say that I believe that Jorge is the Pope.  Now let's say that I have two chapels near me, one SSPX and the other Resistance (or Independent R&R of some kind ... not to mention SV alternatives).

    Can I receive valid absolution from the Resistance priest when I could just as well go to the SSPX priest?  SSPX priest has jurisdiction to validly absolve (from Pope Jorge).  But the Resistance priest does not.  Why is there a sufficient necessity there for me to go to a priest without jurisdiction when I could go to one that has it?  If I go to the Resistance priest without such necessity, would I validly receive absolution?


    Given the Resistance priest is much more likely to be a valid priest, I don't think one needs to worry about choosing SSPX.


    Offline BigFLAVA

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    Re: Validity of Confessions
    « Reply #5 on: April 20, 2023, 04:56:23 PM »
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  • Given the Resistance priest is much more likely to be a valid priest, I don't think one needs to worry about choosing SSPX.
    What would make a resistance priest more valid than an sspx priest 

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Validity of Confessions
    « Reply #6 on: April 20, 2023, 05:12:50 PM »
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  • What would make a resistance priest more valid than an sspx priest
    The fact that there are more and more NO priests that are not conditionally ordained in the Old Rite.  The fact that it's looking much more likely that the SSPX will now have New Rite bishops ordaining priests. 

    Bottom line:  The Resistance doesn't have any of this going on...that I know of or heard of.  As a sedevacantist, if they were my only choices and I knew nothing about the priests other than their affiliations, I would choose the Resistance priest hands down.   

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Validity of Confessions
    « Reply #7 on: April 20, 2023, 06:16:23 PM »
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  • So here's a scenario to ponder (thought occurred to me on the thread about Confirmation ... though I've thought about this before).

    Let's say that I believe that Jorge is the Pope.  Now let's say that I have two chapels near me, one SSPX and the other Resistance (or Independent R&R of some kind ... not to mention SV alternatives).

    Can I receive valid absolution from the Resistance priest when I could just as well go to the SSPX priest?  SSPX priest has jurisdiction to validly absolve (from Pope Jorge).  But the Resistance priest does not.  Why is there a sufficient necessity there for me to go to a priest without jurisdiction when I could go to one that has it?  If I go to the Resistance priest without such necessity, would I validly receive absolution?



    Your question implicitly assumes a false premise: namely, that a true, traditionally-ordained sacerdotal priest cannot validly absolve without permission from a Bishop. This is false.

    A validly-ordained traditional Roman Catholic priest has the power to absolve normal (non-reserved) sins through his ordination itself. He is ontologically a priest. As such, he is transformed and conformed to the image of Christ. He is not just some employee of a diocese or a groveling subject of "Pope Francis." Although the New Rite priests are ordained to be such (as the words of their rite indicate).

    For traditionally and validly-ordained priests, only "reserved cases," as discussed in the docuмents of the Council of Trent, cannot be absolved by a simple priest, outside of a situation of necessity. But very few sins are "reserved" to higher authorities in 1917 Canon Law. 


    Offline Comrade

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    Re: Validity of Confessions
    « Reply #8 on: April 20, 2023, 06:29:22 PM »
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  • The fact that there are more and more NO priests that are not conditionally ordained in the Old Rite.  The fact that it's looking much more likely that the SSPX will now have New Rite bishops ordaining priests.

    Bottom line:  The Resistance doesn't have any of this going on...that I know of or heard of.  As a sedevacantist, if they were my only choices and I knew nothing about the priests other than their affiliations, I would choose the Resistance priest hands down. 
    So, faculties from the local ordinary is never required? It has never been required that priests to receive their ministry from the local ordinary to preach or give valid absolution even when the circuмstances are reasonably be labeled as not an state of emergency?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Validity of Confessions
    « Reply #9 on: April 20, 2023, 06:55:07 PM »
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  • Given the Resistance priest is much more likely to be a valid priest, I don't think one needs to worry about choosing SSPX.

    We're assuming for the sake of argument that they're both valid.  Despite some NO infiltration, 99% of SSPX priests are validly ordained.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Validity of Confessions
    « Reply #10 on: April 20, 2023, 06:57:42 PM »
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  • Your question implicitly assumes a false premise: namely, that a true, traditionally-ordained sacerdotal priest cannot validly absolve without permission from a Bishop. This is false.

    :facepalm:  I'm not assuming anything.  I'm stating the well known fact that ordinarily a priest who lacks faculties cannot validly absolve without jurisdiction / faculties from his Bishop.  Quesition is why it is permitted here in this scenario when there's no actual situational necessity due to there being a priest with faculties that one can easily go to for Confession.

    Canon 879 (retined in 1983 Code #973):
    Quote
    To hear confessions validly it is required that jurisdiction be expressly granted in writing or orally.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Validity of Confessions
    « Reply #11 on: April 20, 2023, 07:09:25 PM »
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  • According to the SSPX itself, it doesn't matter:

    "In brief, as long as the extreme necessity of the individual or the grave necessity of many demands it, one can lawfully, indeed, one must under pain of mortal sin do all that he is able to do validly in virtue of the power of order. The necessary jurisdiction is acquired at the request of souls. The 1917 Code of Canon Law (can. 2261, §§2,3) states that the faithful can "on account of any just cause" demand the sacraments from an excommunicated priest [whom the Church has deprived of jurisdiction] and at that time the one excommunicated, so requested, can administer them. Fr. Hugueny, O.P. remarks that "the demand [of the faithful] gives to the excommunicated priest the power of administering the sacraments."[30] This means that, in necessity, the exercise of the power of order to the full extent necessary is called into act not by the will of the hierarchical superior, but directly by the state of necessity. "The action otherwise prohibited... is rendered licit and permitted by the state of necessity...And Pope Innocent XI, cutting off every argument on the subject, establishes definitively that in necessity the Church supplies jurisdiction lacking even to heretical, infamous, and excommunicated vitandi priests."

    http://archives.sspx.org/1988_consecrations_study/1988_consecrations_theological_study_part_3.htm


    Typical SSPX self-serving butchery of Canon Law.  2261-3 clearly states the following:
    Quote
    But from a banned excommunicate and from others excommunicated after a condemnatory
    or declaratory sentence has come, only the faithful in danger of death can ask for sacramental
    absolution according to the norm of Canons 882 and 2252 and even, if other ministers are lacking,
    other Sacraments and Sacramentals.

    So let's have a look at 882 and 2252, shall we?

    882:

    Quote
    In danger of death all priests and bishops, even those not approved for confessions, validly and
    licitly absolve all penitents whatsoever of all sins and censures whatsoever, no matter how reserved
    or notorious, even if there is present an approved priest, with due regard for the prescription of
    Canons 884 and 2252.



    Let's look at 3 Canons before 882, namely, 879:
    Quote
    To hear confessions validly it is required that jurisdiction be expressly granted in writing or orally.


    2252:
    Quote
    Those constituted in danger of death can receive from a priest, without special faculties,
    absolution from any censure of man or from a censure most specially reserved to the Apostolic See

    It's rather pathetic that SSPX would attempt to cite 2 Canons indicating that IN DANGER OF DEATH the faithful might seek Sacramental absolution from a priest without jurisdiction.

    So the "any just cause" Canon is specifically about the OTHER Sacraments, but then #3 says that for absolution they can only seek out a priest without jurisdiction IN DANGER OF DEATH.  And 2261-3 indicates that the faithful may seek out such a priest only when OTHER MINISTERS ARE LACKING ... which is precisely the scenario presented here, where there is no OTHER MINISTER LACKING (and of course we're not talking about danger of death).

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Validity of Confessions
    « Reply #12 on: April 20, 2023, 07:11:29 PM »
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  • :facepalm:  I'm not assuming anything.  I'm stating the well known fact that ordinarily a priest who lacks faculties cannot validly absolve without jurisdiction / faculties from his Bishop.  Quesition is why it is permitted here in this scenario when there's no actual situational necessity due to there being a priest with faculties that one can easily go to for Confession.

    Moral impossibility is one reason:

    Many FSSP or diocesan priests will not hear your confession if they know you are an SSPXer (who they consider to be formal schismatics).

    I was refused on this basis when I was transitioning between indult and SSPX.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 6 Million Oreos

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    Re: Validity of Confessions
    « Reply #13 on: April 20, 2023, 07:16:36 PM »
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  • Common error is enough to supply a priest the necessary jurisdiction to hear confessions.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Validity of Confessions
    « Reply #14 on: April 20, 2023, 07:17:07 PM »
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  • Moral impossibility is one reason:

    Many FSSP or diocesan priests will not hear your confession if they know you are an SSPXer (who they consider to be formal schismatics).

    I was refused on this basis when I was transitioning between indult and SSPX.

    OK, maybe ... if when you go in the Confessional they happen to ask you if you're SSPXer.

    But this isn't really the scenario.  SSPX priests have jurisdiction to hear Confession from Bergoglio, whereas a Resistance Priest or Independent R&R priest do not.  Why can I go to the Resistance or Independent Priest when, say, "right across the street" you have an SSPX priest (known valid) to whom one could go to Confession.  Even the "Danger of Death" provision in Canon Law states that one can only approach a priest w/o jurisdiction/faculties if no other minister (with jurisdiction) is available.