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Author Topic: Valid Confirmations?  (Read 704 times)

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Offline Todd The Trad

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Valid Confirmations?
« on: September 30, 2021, 01:02:03 PM »
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  • I have a question that I've been curious about for quite some time now but haven't come across anything dealing with it. Let's say hypothetically there was a priest who was validly ordained but for some reason his consecration to become a Bishop was invalid. Would his Confirmations be valid? I do know that priests in the latin rite can receive permission to Confirm and I also know that in at least some of the eastern rites it is the priest who ordinarily confirms...
    :confused:
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Valid Confirmations?
    « Reply #1 on: September 30, 2021, 02:14:01 PM »
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  • This question has crossed my mind as well.  Just as Confessions normally require jurisdiction, but due to the emergency state of the Church, that's supplied by the Church, so too one could make a case for Confirmation.  With Confirmation, however, it's a bit more than just jurisdiction, something which theologians have described as the activation of a latent power of orders.  I would consider that doubtful, perhaps something that could be requested in extremis but otherwise avoided if at all possible.  There are as of now a fair number of bishops floating around, and even Eastern priests.


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Valid Confirmations?
    « Reply #2 on: October 01, 2021, 02:21:09 AM »
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  • Under certain circuмstances, a bishop can give a priest permission to Confirm.  This was done mainly on the mission field in the past, lest there otherwise be no reasonable hope for anyone being confirmed.  If the situation is now nearly the same, ie. No reasonable hope to be confirmed, then I think the confirmation is probably valid.  Can one be spiritually confirmed?  But don’t take my word for it.  I’m no theologian.  Ask a priest or a bishop.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Valid Confirmations?
    « Reply #3 on: October 01, 2021, 07:16:08 AM »
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  • Under certain circuмstances, a bishop can give a priest permission to Confirm.  This was done mainly on the mission field in the past, lest there otherwise be no reasonable hope for anyone being confirmed.  If the situation is now nearly the same, ie. No reasonable hope to be confirmed, then I think the confirmation is probably valid.  Can one be spiritually confirmed?  But don’t take my word for it.  I’m no theologian.  Ask a priest or a bishop.
    No, you cannot be "spiritually confirmed".  Confirmation is a sacrament.

    Whether the power of the priest to confirm is something that exists in and of itself, or is a case of potestas ligata (requires a bishop to "give the go-ahead", similar to receiving faculties for hearing confessions), is something I haven't had enough coffee this morning, to render any kind of useful comments.  One might check Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.  I do know that Ott refers to father-abbots, who were not sacramental bishops, ordaining other priests in medieval England, and "Pope Pius XIII" (Father Lucian Pulvermacher, not Jude Law) used this as the linchpin of his argument for restoring holy orders in a kind of "jumper cables" fashion.  It was similar to the hypothetical situation of only one priest being left on the face of the earth, with the question then being "can he ordain more priests?".  Father Pulvermacher then stretched this out to being elected pope by a remnant of the faithful, then him ordaining priests, then consecrating them bishops, then having one of them to consecrate him as a bishop... again, not enough coffee to deal with that further, it's too early in the morning.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Valid Confirmations?
    « Reply #4 on: October 01, 2021, 07:36:00 AM »
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  • No, you cannot be "spiritually confirmed".  Confirmation is a sacrament.

    Hey, if there's Baptism of Desire, why not Confirmation of Desire also?


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Valid Confirmations?
    « Reply #5 on: October 01, 2021, 08:08:52 AM »
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  • Hey, if there's Baptism of Desire, why not Confirmation of Desire also?
    Charles Coulombe actually made a similar argument for the other six sacraments besides baptism, though I suspect he was being a bit tongue-in-cheek, as he is wont to do from time to time.  He can be quite puckish when the occasion arises.

    More seriously, I am not willing to limit the Holy Ghost's ability to confer His gifts upon someone outside the sacrament of confirmation, but such bestowal of gifts (whether all seven of them, or just one or more of the seven) would not be the sacrament of confirmation.

    I'm sure rivers of ink have been spilled on this, but is BOD regarded as an alternate version of the sacrament of baptism, or something else, perhaps an extraordinary means of conferring the effects of baptism outside of the sacrament proper?

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Valid Confirmations?
    « Reply #6 on: October 01, 2021, 09:04:56 AM »
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  • Charles Coulombe actually made a similar argument for the other six sacraments besides baptism, though I suspect he was being a bit tongue-in-cheek, as he is wont to do from time to time.  He can be quite puckish when the occasion arises.

    More seriously, I am not willing to limit the Holy Ghost's ability to confer His gifts upon someone outside the sacrament of confirmation, but such bestowal of gifts (whether all seven of them, or just one or more of the seven) would not be the sacrament of confirmation.

    I'm sure rivers of ink have been spilled on this, but is BOD regarded as an alternate version of the sacrament of baptism, or something else, perhaps an extraordinary means of conferring the effects of baptism outside of the sacrament proper?
    I guess that’s what I meant, that God could give the effects of Confirmation to someone who was not Confirmed if the need arose. Think of a Catholic who is baptized, but for whom getting Confirmed isn’t going to happen for the foreseeable future due to Covid laws.  I believe there will be many Catholics in this position soon enough, probably are some already!

    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Valid Confirmations?
    « Reply #7 on: October 01, 2021, 01:31:35 PM »
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  • What about an SSPX or independent Bishop who was validly consecrated? Would his Confirmations be valid like his ordinations or would he technically speaking lack jurisdiction/faculties to do so like the confession issue? I'm assuming they'd be valid..
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Valid Confirmations?
    « Reply #8 on: October 01, 2021, 01:52:27 PM »
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  • What about an SSPX or independent Bishop who was validly consecrated? Would his Confirmations be valid like his ordinations or would he technically speaking lack jurisdiction/faculties to do so like the confession issue? I'm assuming they'd be valid..

    Yeah, that's why I said that it's not quite about jurisdiction, but rather about a power of Orders that is available to a bishop but somehow bound (a potestas ligata) in a priest.  Any bishop, with or without jurisdiction, can validly confirm, but a priest requires authorization from a bishop with jurisdiction.  So, a bishop without jurisdiction can't unbound this power in a priest, but he does possess it himself.

    I believe that one cold argue that the Church would unbind this power given the Crisis, just as the Church supplies jurisdiction for the good of souls ... but it's doubtful since confirmation is in a slightly different category that way.

    [Some theologians believe that a priest can ordain other priests due to a similar bound power of Order, but I don't buy that opinion, and I would certainly never assist at the Mass of a priest who was ordained that way due to the doubt.  Similarly with Confirmation, except that with Confirmation it is certain that a priest CAN validly confirm under the right circuмstances.]

    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Valid Confirmations?
    « Reply #9 on: October 01, 2021, 02:11:00 PM »
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  • Gotcha. Makes sense.
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!