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Author Topic: Usefulness of discussions with Rome  (Read 1558 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Usefulness of discussions with Rome
« on: July 17, 2010, 02:17:30 AM »
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  • Bishop Williamson's latest

    Many Catholic souls presently worried by the on-going discussions taking place between Rome and the Society of St Pius X might be somewhat re-assured if they could hear, as I did two months ago, Bishop de Galarreta giving his reasons why these discussions should proceed to their appointed end (but no further). They present little danger and several advantages, he says.
    After the introductory meeting last October, there were discussions proper in January, March and May of this year. Each meeting has a before, a during and an after. Beforehand, the team of four SSPX representatives submits to the four Roman theologians a declaration of Catholic doctrine on the matter in hand, together with the problems raised by the contrary doctrine arising out of Vatican II. At the meeting itself, the Romans give their answers, and the ensuing oral discussion is recorded. Afterwards, the SSPX draws up a written summary of the recorded discussion. So far only the liturgy and religious liberty have been discussed, but the Bishop envisages all further necessary discussions being terminated by the spring of next year.
    In evaluating these discussions, he distinguishes between the mere fact of their taking place, and their content. As to their content, he says that the SSPX team is disappointed by the oral discussions because, as another member of the team told me, "They lack theological precision. Two lines of thinking which cannot meet produce not a dialogue but rather two monologues. However, the Romans are nice to us, so the meetings are not so much vinegar as mayonnaise. We say what we think. We are under no illusions". But the Bishop does say that the discussions' written product from before and after the meetings will constitute a valuable dossier for the demarcation of Catholic Truth from Conciliar error, and for the tracking down of the latest evolution of that error. "Since the time of John-Paul II it has become more subtle", he says.
    As to the mere fact of the discussions, the Bishop sees several further advantages. Firstly, it is good for Romans to get to know representatives of the SSPX, and vice versa -- such contact can cut out much of the Devil's beloved smoke and mirrors. Nor does the Bishop see great danger in the contact, because these particular Romans are not perverse, he says, and it is clear where they are coming from and where they want to go. Secondly, the mere fact that Rome at the highest level is seriously discussing SSPX doctrine gives to the SSPX credit in the eyes of many a mainstream priest of good will, otherwise inaccessible for Tradition. And thirdly, some of Rome's best brains are occasionally stopped in their tracks by the old arguments being newly put forward by the SSPX. In other words Catholic Truth may be only beginning, but it is beginning, to impose itself once more.
    Dear readers, let us have patience, and a boundless trust in the Providence of God - after all, it is his Church !  And let us pray to the Mother of God to maintain in each of us the love of that Truth which alone can save our souls, and without which Catholic Authority can never be restored.
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    Offline Roman Catholic

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    Usefulness of discussions with Rome
    « Reply #1 on: July 17, 2010, 11:00:51 PM »
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  • Maybe we are supposed to excuse  Benedict for not publicly celebrating what he calls the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite. Maybe we are supposed to feel sorry for him because of the position he is claimed to be in -- having to deal with a bishop who reportedly threatened to resign...

    Pope Benedict XVI celebrates the Tridentine Mass privately, says head of SSPX

    By Damian Thompson Religion Last updated: July 17th, 2010  http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100047655/pope-benedict-xvi-celebrates-the-tridentine-mass-privately-says-bishop/
     
    Pope Benedict XVI celebrates Mass in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite in private, according to the head of the Society of St Pius X, Bishop Bernard Fellay. Speaking at a gathering in Brazil this month, Bishop Fellay also claimed that an unnamed Italian bishop had threatened to resign if the Pope ever celebrated the traditional Latin Mass in public.

    According to Fellay, the Holy Father’s secretary, Mgr Georg Gänswein, also uses the 1962 Missal; Father Z suggests that the Pope may sometimes serve Mass for him (in the older form, he implies, though this isn’t clear).

    The rumours that Benedict XVI says the old Mass in his own chapel have been circulating for a long time; just last week, a senior Westminster priest with strong links to the Vatican told me he had reason to believe them. But Fellay is on the record here and I don’t think he would make such a claim unless he knew it to be true.

    This cheers me up. I’ve deliberately stuck the word “Tridentine” in the headline to this post because, although it’s been largely superseded by “Extraordinary Form”, I want to remind all those English liberals who are hastily reinventing themselves as fans of the Holy Father that he profoundly loves the Mass they spent decades sneering at – and indeed celebrated it publicly when he was head of the CDF.

    As for the bishop who’ll resign if the Pope celebrates the old Mass in public, I think he should just go anyway, don’t you?




    Offline Raoul76

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    Usefulness of discussions with Rome
    « Reply #2 on: July 17, 2010, 11:24:10 PM »
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  • A tip to all sedes -- when the heat is on, stay out of threads like this. Don't say anything.  The temptation is intense, but you must resist.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Usefulness of discussions with Rome
    « Reply #3 on: July 17, 2010, 11:43:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    A tip to all sedes -- when the heat is on, stay out of threads like this. Don't say anything.  The temptation is intense, but you must resist.


     :facepalm: :rolleyes:

    So shall we guess what you would say?
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Usefulness of discussions with Rome
    « Reply #4 on: July 20, 2010, 11:59:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: Bishop Williamson says Bishop Galaretta
    these particular Romans are not perverse


    Well, that's reassuring.  :scratchchin:


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Usefulness of discussions with Rome
    « Reply #5 on: July 21, 2010, 12:05:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: Bishop Williamson
    And let us pray to the Mother of God to maintain in each of us the love of that Truth which alone can save our souls, and without which Catholic Authority can never be restored.


    Has Bishop Williamson just gone sedevacantist?

    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    Usefulness of discussions with Rome
    « Reply #6 on: July 21, 2010, 07:40:14 AM »
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  •  :turban:

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #7 on: July 21, 2010, 10:29:00 PM »
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  • Quote
    Pope Benedict XVI celebrates Mass in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite in private, according to the head of the Society of St Pius X, Bishop Bernard Fellay.


    Uh, who gives a rat's you-know-what?

    Are we supposed to do the banana dance? :dancing-banana:

    I bet BO occasionally reads the Constitution, but that does not seem to be doing much good :)
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Usefulness of discussions with Rome
    « Reply #8 on: July 21, 2010, 10:33:23 PM »
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  • I hear that hens often find discussions with foxes to be quite...invigorating and...useful ;)
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    « Reply #9 on: July 22, 2010, 05:30:17 AM »
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  • Quote


    Pope Benedict XVI celebrates the Tridentine Mass privately, says head of SSPX



    ... ten days after Benedict-Ratzinger released his "Motu" Proprior of July 7, 2007, which allowed his Novus Ordo Church, to a very limited degree, to use the Conciliar Bugnini Mess of 1962-2009+, it drew a strong denial from the Papal Press Secretary, Federico Lombardi, who stated categorically that reports Benedict-Ratzinger performs the "Motu" Mess of 1962-2009+ in his private chapel are false.
    Countering news reports that Benedict-Ratzinger celebrated the "Motu" Mess privately, the Papal Press Secretary confirmed that Benedict-Ratzinger performs a morning Novus Ordo Mess, using the Novus Ordo's Third Edition of 2002. He specifically denied that Newpope used the "Motu" Mess. Lomardi explained: "The confusion probably was caused by our footage of the pope celebrating facing the altar, which is due to the fact that the altar is against the wall" in the private chapel of the Apostolic Palace. Moreover, Lombardi confirmed just how completely Novus Ordo Benedict-Ratzinger is at his private Mess. He confirmed that two private secretaries concelebrate the papal Mess each morning. Lombardi explained that this fact "obviously means he is using the new Missal," since traditionally concelebration is prohibited, except for the traditional Mass of sacerdotal ordination and episcopal consecration. From: The Fathers


    Offline Roman Catholic

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    Usefulness of discussions with Rome
    « Reply #10 on: July 22, 2010, 05:36:09 AM »
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  • Quote
    Pope Benedict XVI celebrates the Tridentine Mass privately, says head of SSPX






    From a friend:

    ..a docuмentary on Benedict XVI "in private" - on the 5th anniversary of his election. It showed Benedict's morning "mass," and while he was facing the tabernacle and celebrating in Latin (together with Msgr. Ganswein and some other presbyter, in concelebration), the docuмentary emphasized that Benedict was using the Novus Ordo rite. It was also clear from the images I saw with the concelebration, the vestments, and the "canon" said out loud.


    Offline Wessex

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    « Reply #11 on: July 22, 2010, 08:32:25 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    A tip to all sedes -- when the heat is on, stay out of threads like this. Don't say anything.  The temptation is intense, but you must resist.



    I was just wondering what heat you mean. The failed initiative has to produce a consolation prize or two. Enough to keep the loyalists in that state of limbo they seem to prefer. All those Masses being said secretly in Rome makes me think of the Elizabethan era in England. But of course such a revelation has been denied and one wonder whether our bishops-in-exile make it up as they go along. Nothing new there.

    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    « Reply #12 on: July 22, 2010, 08:28:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Quote
    Pope Benedict XVI celebrates Mass in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite in private, according to the head of the Society of St Pius X, Bishop Bernard Fellay.


    Uh, who gives a rat's you-know-what?

    I bet BO occasionally reads the Constitution, but that does not seem to be doing much good :)


    Haha! :laugh1:   I will try to remember that one.