Author Topic: Use of the term "Apostasy" (Read 4566 times)

Caminus · « **on:** August 10, 2010, 08:46:31 PM »

Many people use the term "Apostates" to describe the modern hierarchy. It obviously cannot be meant to apply in the strict sense so in what manner are we using the term? Or is it just a "golden arrow" descriptive to tidy things up? It seems to me that we should be using more, not less, precise terminology.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #1 on:** August 10, 2010, 08:50:29 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

Many people use the term "Apostates" to describe the modern hierarchy. It obviously cannot be meant to apply in the strict sense so in what manner are we using the term? Or is it just a "golden arrow" descriptive to tidy things up? It seems to me that we should be using more, not less, precise terminology.

The "silent apostasy" is used I think to describe conduct which seems that it can only be the result of the loss of Faith.

For example when Si Si No No uses the title "Cardinals without Faith."

Caminus · « **Reply #2 on:** August 10, 2010, 08:56:45 PM »

The theological virtue of faith is fairly durable, considered as an infused virtue. I think the problem is the obscuring of the Gifts of the Holy Ghost and the perversion of theological science.

An apostate in the strict sense of the term would be a man who renounced Christianity and took up Islam or became a Rationalist. Obviously this doesn't apply to modern clerics for the most part.

At any rate, opinions, ideas and actions can lead to apostasy, but they are not apostasy itself.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #3 on:** August 10, 2010, 08:58:47 PM »

If you journeyed to Lake Togo in Benin, in order to worship with the animists, taking along some members of the press to see and interview you about it, what would call yourself afterward?

If you coordinated events like those at Assisi (1986 and 2002), participating in them as well, what would you call yourself afterward?

"Slick" apostasy is still apostasy, even if you return to the Vatican and keep wearing your tailored cassock from Gammarelli, offering your daily (worthless and invalid) NOM, etc. It is like the world-wide, slick thievery of the banksters versus the local, small guy who robs the convenience store. In both cases, you are dealing with thievery.

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #4 on:** August 10, 2010, 08:59:16 PM »

Apostasy: abandoning the true religion.

It can be applied in the strict sense, except in the cases of the enemies within who were never Catholic to begin with.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #5 on:** August 10, 2010, 09:03:27 PM »

"We, more than anyone, have the cult of MAN." -- GB Montini

Caminus · « **Reply #6 on:** August 10, 2010, 09:10:41 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

If you journeyed to Lake Togo in Benin, in order to worship with the animists, taking along some members of the press to see and interview you about it, what would call yourself afterward?

That depends on the motive. If you "worshipped" with them as one of them the term would apply. In the case of JPII and his philosophy of religion, he thinks that they are "worshipping" the true God with him. There's a difference in circuмstances and intention. This fact doesn't detract from his heinous errors, rather it simply correctly categorizes them. It doesn't do any good to categorize a thief as a murderer simply because we find his thievery distasteful.

Caminus · « **Reply #7 on:** August 10, 2010, 09:11:59 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

"We, more than anyone, have the cult of MAN." -- GB Montini

You have to impute another sense in order for the charge to stick. You really think he meant that he worships man? No one is defending their errors, but again it doesn't make any sense to wrongly identify them.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #8 on:** August 10, 2010, 09:13:00 PM »

Quote

CARDINAL RATZINGER: A PREFECT WITHOUT FAITH
AT THE CONGREGATION FOR THE FAITH

http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/1994_June/They_Think_Theyve_Won_PartVI.htm

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #9 on:** August 10, 2010, 09:15:30 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

You really think he meant that he worships man?

Have you ever actually read the Liber accusationis in Paulum Sextum? Truly amazing stuff in there...

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #10 on:** August 10, 2010, 09:17:59 PM »

BTW, JP2's actions in Benin led to an enormous increase in 'going VooDoo' -- 25% of the nation to 60% after his visit. It even became the national religion. He sought "to sever others even as he severed himself."

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #11 on:** August 10, 2010, 09:25:30 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

In the case of JPII and his philosophy of religion, he thinks that they are "worshipping" the true God with him.

Such a grotesque 'philosophy of religion' is radically irreconcilable with supernatural faith -- something he proved to us again and again and again and again...

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #12 on:** August 10, 2010, 09:26:36 PM »

"The great apostasy will begin at the top."

It did. It spread.

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #13 on:** August 10, 2010, 09:30:13 PM »

Excepts from The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas

Second Part of the Second Part

Question 12. Apostasy

[my emphases in bold]

But if he give up the faith, then he seems to turn away from God altogether: and consequently, apostasy simply and absolutely is that whereby a man withdraws from the faith, and is called "apostasy of perfidy." On this way apostasy, simply so called, pertains to unbelief.
-------------------------------------------

It belongs to faith not only that the heart should believe, but also that external words and deeds should bear witness to the inward faith, for confession is an act of faith. On this way too, certain external words or deeds pertain to unbelief, in so far as they are signs of unbelief, even as a sign of health is said itself to be healthy. Now although the authority quoted may be understood as referring to every kind of apostate, yet it applies most truly to an apostate from the faith. For since faith is the first foundation of things to be hoped for, and since, without faith it is "impossible to please God"; when once faith is removed, man retains nothing that may be useful for the obtaining of eternal salvation, for which reason it is written (Proverbs 6:12): "A man that is an apostate, an unprofitable man": because faith is the life of the soul, according to Romans 1:17: "The just man liveth by faith." Therefore, just as when the life of the body is taken away, man's every member and part loses its due disposition, so when the life of justice, which is by faith, is done away, disorder appears in all his members. First, in his mouth, whereby chiefly his mind stands revealed; secondly, in his eyes; thirdly, in the instrument of movement; fourthly, in his will, which tends to evil. The result is that "he sows discord," endeavoring to sever others from the faith even as he severed himself.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #14 on:** August 10, 2010, 09:33:33 PM »

From Mortalium animos:

"...The followers of this theory are not only deceived and mistaken, but since they repudiate the true religion by attacking it in its very essence, they move step by step toward naturalism and atheism. Hence it clearly follows that anyone who gives assent to such theories and undertakings utterly abandons divinely revealed religion..."

It is as plain as the summer sun that JP2 (et alii) held such theories (as outlined in the docuмent) and did all in his power to act accordingly and promote them as far and wide as possible.