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Author Topic: Universal Traditional Catholic Principles, the FSSP, and Sedevacantism  (Read 4679 times)

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You most certainly misunderstood me.

If there's one thing I can't stand, it's people who put words in my mouth and/or jump to conclusions. Why not just ask me?

If I believed that the Novus Ordo (or any other group) was invalid, believe me, I wouldn't be shy. I'd come right out and say it! I'm part Irish and as far as my personality goes, I'm even more Irish. My culture is "tell it like it is" and being down to earth. No nonsense.

Trads leave behind the Novus Ordo because it's dangerous to the Faith. That's enough reason. We Trads collectively disagree on how we got here, how to fix it, the status of the Pope, etc. but that's all beside the point. But we all agree on this: the Novus Ordo is poison for the Faith. It must be left behind by ALL who are awake and will heed good advice!

Better to stay at home alone for 10+ years than to participate in the Novus Ordo abomination. At least your Faith won't be under assault every Sunday if you stay home...

Trad options for Mass are a completely different story.
I certainly meant no offense or intentionally put words in your mouth.  I absolutely would have asked you, had I realized that I was doing that.  So sorry for misrepresenting your statement.

Offline Matthew

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Why wouldn't any non-Sedevacantist *prefer* to have permission from the Conciliar authorities, assuming they weren't obligated to compromise to get it?  I guess that doesn't make sense to me.

Like even in a case like say Acts 5:29, the Apostles wouldn't listen when the civil authorities told them not to preach the gospel, but they'd certainly prefer the authorities to have sanctioned the preaching of the gospel vs banning it.

If Francis is the Pope, wouldn't it be preferable that he give his permission, even if you'd disobey if he didn't give it?

What am I missing?

Because to get permission from the Modernist Roman authorities, there is always a compromise involved. That's what you're missing. That includes 2006 Summorum Pontificuм -- ESPECIALLY that one, which is the most widely used Indult today.

All of these compromised "we got permission from Rome. Yay!" groups have one thing in common: they accept the Novus Ordo as the "Ordinary Form" of the Mass, and the Tridentine (a.k.a. TRUE MASS) as the "Extraordinary Form".

That compromise alone allows us, even compels us, to throw the deal back in the Conciliar Authorities' faces and proceed as normal without Conciliar permission. Just look at all the compromises the SSPX has already accepted to get to where they're at -- they have all kinds of Conciliar approval already. They are a work in progress.
https://www.cathinfo.com/c.htm


You should make the effort to attend Mass at one of Bishop Zendajas' chapels, you will have a much more pleasant experience.
The large majority of Traditional Catholics do not have this option.  For most of us, this would entail a round trip by plane including large car or van rental, meals, and overnight hotel accommodations.  Throw in the entire family, and it's unaffordable.  

The large majority of Traditional Catholics do not have this option.  For most of us, this would entail a round trip by plane including large car or van rental, meals, and overnight hotel accommodations.  Throw in the entire family, and it's unaffordable.  
True, but if you can combine it as part of your vacation (or make it the primary purpose of a "vacation" such as attending Mass at Christmas or Easter), then it is worth the extra expense (assuming you regularly have no access to the Latin Mass by a non-compromising priests). 

Quote from: Last Tradhican
You say  "We are in the worst crisis in the history of Christendom", while the pope and the hierarchy all say that we are in the springtime of the Catholic Church

Many, yes. Not all. His Excellency Bishop Athanasius Schneider is one who has called out the failures of the last 50 years recently, "The tragic conflagration of the cathedral of Notre Dame de Paris is also a propitious occasion for all members of the Church to do penance for the acts of betrayal that have been committed against Christ and His Divine teachings in the life of the Church over the past fifty years. Penance and reparation must be made, especially for the betrayal of the command of God the Father that all mankind should believe in His Divine Son, the only Savior of mankind. For God wills positively only the one and unique religion which believes that His Incarnated Son is God and the only Savior of mankind. Penance and reparation must also be made for the betrayal of Christ’s explicit command to evangelize all nations without exception, first among them the Jєωιѕн people. For it was to them that Christ first sent His Apostles, to bring them to faith in Him and to the New and Everlasting Covenant for which the Old and temporary Covenant was established. If the Shepherds of the Church refuse to do penance for the spiritual conflagration of the past fifty years, and for the betrayal of Christ’s universal command to evangelize, should we then not fear that God might send another and more shocking sign, like a devastating conflagration or earthquake that would destroy St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome? God will not indefinitely and shamelessly be mocked by so many Shepherds of the Church of our own day, through their betrayal of the Faith, their sycophantic serving of the world and their neo-pagan worship of temporal and earthly realities. To them as well are addressed these words of Christ, “I tell you, unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”  (Lk 13: 5)May the fire at the cathedral of Notre Dame de Paris, however sad and deplorable it is, rekindle — especially in the Shepherds of the Church — a love and zeal for the true Catholic Faith and for the ardent evangelization of all those who do not yet believe in Christ. And may they be mindful not to marginalize and cowardly exclude the Jєωιѕн and Muslim people from this outstanding form of charity. May the fire at Notre Dame also serve as a means to inflame in the Shepherds of the Church a spirit of true repentance, so that God might grant to all the grace of a renewal in the true Faith and in true love for Christ, Our Lord, Our God and Our Savior." https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/bishop-schneider-notre-dame-fire-sign-of-spiritual-conflagration-in-the-church

Quote
you say you want to join that church

No, I say that (1) there is only one Church, outside of which we cannot be saved, and which we must never leave. and (2) that Church is guaranteed Indefectibility and a visible Hierarchy with at least a few good Catholic Bishops. This is what Pope St. Pius has taught us. To doubt this is to doubt the Divine Promise itself, and the Word of God Who is Truth and cannot lie. You can do that if you want. I don't intend to. The fact that hardly any one listened to Our Lady and Communist and Masonic infiltration spread in the hierarchy does not mean that the Catholic Church defected and lost Her Apostolicity. What the Church needs are Bishops and Priests, and even Faithful, who in whatever measure we can, strive to imitate Saint Padre Pio, who as we know was a stigmatist who offered only the Tridentine Mass for 50 years, and foresaw what was coming: "Final lesson: Fatima - Padre Pio was even less obliging towards the prevailing social and political order, or rather, disorder (in 1966): "the confusion of ideas and the reign of thieves." He prophesied that the Communists would come to power, "by surprise, without firing a shot... It will happen overnight." This should not surprise us, since the requests of Our Lady of Fatima have not been listened to. He even told Bishop Piccinelli, that the red flag will fly over the Vatican, "but that will pass." Here again, his conclusion rejoins that of the Queen of Prophets: "But in the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph." The means by which this prophesy will come to pass, we know: by the divine power; but it must be prompted by the two great powers in man’s hands: prayer and penance. This is the lesson which our Lady wanted to remind us of at the beginning of this century: God wants to save the world by devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and there is no problem, material or spiritual, national or international, that cannot be solved by the holy rosary and our sacrifices. https://sspx.org/en/padre-pio-vatican-ii-new-mass

Summorum Pontificuм was a good thing for Tradition, it doesn't mean it is necessarily the final word, and we're allowed to ask for something even better from Rome, which is what the SSPX has done and what it will do under Rev. Father Davide Pagliarani. Here's a 2011 Interview from the new Superior General of the SSPX that shows his solidly traditional thought and praxis even before being SG.

http://archives.sspx.org/news/2011_archive/fr_davide_pagliarani-marco_bongi_interview_7-2011/fr_davide_pagliarani-marco_bongo_interview_part2.htm

Universae Ecclesiae that followed Summorum Pontificuм in 2011, I believe, was even better. Something in future could be better still. "The little good that we can do in Rome is probably more important than the great good that we can do elsewhere.” ... I think that Bishop de Galarreta’s remark sums up perfectly the Roman spirit with which the Society wants to serve the Roman Church: to do whatever is possible so that the Church can reclaim Her Tradition, starting with Rome itself. The history of the Church teaches us that no universal, effective and lasting reform is possible unless Rome makes that reform its own and it starts from Rome ... First of all the docuмent states precisely that the restoration of the 1962 liturgy is a universal law for the Church; in the second place the Instruction clearly makes an effort to defend, primarily in a strictly juridical context, the priests who have been prevented from using the Tridentine Missal by their ordinaries. With a certain finesse it reminds the bishops that it is up to them specifically to guarantee those rights… in order to safeguard them it is possible to appeal decisions made by the ordinaries themselves. These, I think, are the most positive points, drastically summarized." Father Pagliarani then goes on to mention some critiques and what could be bettered. The opponents of the Society are hardly representing the situation correctly. Many in the mainstream Church have benefited from SP.