1. WHAT point? Who made that point? Maybe someone came in to the thread and said this, but I certainly didn't.

2. That goes without saying. I am all for maintaining as much unity with other Catholics ("those who have the Faith") as possible. But that doesn't render a discussion about the essence of Traditional Catholicism useless.

You said this

Traditional Catholics, from the very beginning, have held 3 essential principles:

1. Leave the Conciliar Church and Novus Ordo behind completely, regardless of having a Trad option lined up for Mass. Stay home on Sunday if no Tridentine Mass available.
2. Seek out SURE sacraments in "lifeboats": valid priests to offer both the Tridentine Mass and traditional Sacraments, and support them wherever they are, even at independently set up "Traditional chapels" which Rome considers "illicit" or "un-canonical". Treat them for all practical purposes like one's local parish.

You also said the FSSP is not trad.

i'm not certain whether or not this means you'd say its better to stay home than to attend a Tridentine mass at an FSSP, assuming those were the only options.  I could see how someone could read your post that way, 'cause I did at first as well, but then I reread it and I realized I'm not actually sure whether you were saying so or not.

Ok, I can see where the confusion comes from.

Strictly speaking, the FSSP doesn't meet the definition of Trad, since they insert the novel idea (and go against the original Trad thinking that we have the right to attend the Tridentine Mass, permission or no permission, because Quo Primum gives us permission).

Long story short, Trads have (either literally or figuratively) a copy of Quo Primum hanging on their living room wall. It is the foundation of the whole movement. Further, we believe that no one can force us to put our Faith and our souls at risk -- that we have to save our souls and continue living our Catholic lives (which includes Mass and the Sacraments) -- Crisis or no Crisis.

The FSSP introduces the novelty that we need, or would PREFER TO HAVE, permission from the Conciliar Roman authorities. Most Trads dating back to the beginning of the movement would disagree. If they go against one of the core tenets of the Trad movement, how can we call them Trad? At least strictly speaking.

The status of their Latin Masses is obviously different than the Novus Ordo. As long as you have "validly ordained" covered, and they are saying the Tridentine Mass, then you have a valid Mass. So the status of FSSP is somewhere in between a Novus Ordo and a "fully Trad" Mass -- though it's closer to the latter.


The million dollar question is: why stick with an official Trad (tm) chapel in the first place?

Well, I would answer that there is a certain desirability and comfort to have that stability, to have the same, stable position as those original Catholics who first left the Novus Ordo and left to find Tridentine lifeboats in which to ride out the Crisis. I'm sure this point could be elaborated upon: it's more "traditional" like the Faith itself, it shows that we haven't "reacted" to anything since then (for example, a carrot held out by the Conciliar Authorities), or changed/given up any principles of the Faith, etc.

If it wasn't needed by the original Trads, it isn't needed by me. Because the Faith had to exist at all times. If we really needed permission to be faithful to the Catholic Faith pre-Vatican II, then the Faith wasn't practiced perfectly anywhere from 1970 - 1983 (or Ecclesia Dei in 1988, or Summorum Pontificuм in 2006). I'm not willing to accept that.

I think it's safer, from a "sound lifeboat" or a prudence perspective, to recognize in myself 100% of what was found in the original Trad movement, and nothing more.

You most certainly misunderstood me.

If there's one thing I can't stand, it's people who put words in my mouth and/or jump to conclusions. Why not just ask me?

If I believed that the Novus Ordo (or any other group) was invalid, believe me, I wouldn't be shy. I'd come right out and say it! I'm part Irish and as far as my personality goes, I'm even more Irish. My culture is "tell it like it is" and being down to earth. No nonsense.

Trads leave behind the Novus Ordo because it's dangerous to the Faith. That's enough reason. We Trads collectively disagree on how we got here, how to fix it, the status of the Pope, etc. but that's all beside the point. But we all agree on this: the Novus Ordo is poison for the Faith. It must be left behind by ALL who are awake and will heed good advice!

Better to stay at home alone for 10+ years than to participate in the Novus Ordo abomination. At least your Faith won't be under assault every Sunday if you stay home...

Trad options for Mass are a completely different story.

I certainly meant no offense or intentionally put words in your mouth.  I absolutely would have asked you, had I realized that I was doing that.  So sorry for misrepresenting your statement.

You should make the effort to attend Mass at one of Bishop Zendajas' chapels, you will have a much more pleasant experience.

The large majority of Traditional Catholics do not have this option.  For most of us, this would entail a round trip by plane including large car or van rental, meals, and overnight hotel accommodations.  Throw in the entire family, and it's unaffordable.  

You say  "We are in the worst crisis in the history of Christendom", while the pope and the hierarchy all say that we are in the springtime of the Catholic Church

Many, yes. Not all. His Excellency Bishop Athanasius Schneider is one who has called out the failures of the last 50 years recently, "The tragic conflagration of the cathedral of Notre Dame de Paris is also a propitious occasion for all members of the Church to do penance for the acts of betrayal that have been committed against Christ and His Divine teachings in the life of the Church over the past fifty years. Penance and reparation must be made, especially for the betrayal of the command of God the Father that all mankind should believe in His Divine Son, the only Savior of mankind. For God wills positively only the one and unique religion which believes that His Incarnated Son is God and the only Savior of mankind. Penance and reparation must also be made for the betrayal of Christ’s explicit command to evangelize all nations without exception, first among them the Jєωιѕн people. For it was to them that Christ first sent His Apostles, to bring them to faith in Him and to the New and Everlasting Covenant for which the Old and temporary Covenant was established. If the Shepherds of the Church refuse to do penance for the spiritual conflagration of the past fifty years, and for the betrayal of Christ’s universal command to evangelize, should we then not fear that God might send another and more shocking sign, like a devastating conflagration or earthquake that would destroy St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome? God will not indefinitely and shamelessly be mocked by so many Shepherds of the Church of our own day, through their betrayal of the Faith, their sycophantic serving of the world and their neo-pagan worship of temporal and earthly realities. To them as well are addressed these words of Christ, “I tell you, unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”  (Lk 13: 5)May the fire at the cathedral of Notre Dame de Paris, however sad and deplorable it is, rekindle — especially in the Shepherds of the Church — a love and zeal for the true Catholic Faith and for the ardent evangelization of all those who do not yet believe in Christ. And may they be mindful not to marginalize and cowardly exclude the Jєωιѕн and Muslim people from this outstanding form of charity. May the fire at Notre Dame also serve as a means to inflame in the Shepherds of the Church a spirit of true repentance, so that God might grant to all the grace of a renewal in the true Faith and in true love for Christ, Our Lord, Our God and Our Savior." https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/bishop-schneider-notre-dame-fire-sign-of-spiritual-conflagration-in-the-church

you say you want to join that church

No, I say that (1) there is only one Church, outside of which we cannot be saved, and which we must never leave. and (2) that Church is guaranteed Indefectibility and a visible Hierarchy with at least a few good Catholic Bishops. This is what Pope St. Pius has taught us. To doubt this is to doubt the Divine Promise itself, and the Word of God Who is Truth and cannot lie. You can do that if you want. I don't intend to. The fact that hardly any one listened to Our Lady and Communist and Masonic infiltration spread in the hierarchy does not mean that the Catholic Church defected and lost Her Apostolicity. What the Church needs are Bishops and Priests, and even Faithful, who in whatever measure we can, strive to imitate Saint Padre Pio, who as we know was a stigmatist who offered only the Tridentine Mass for 50 years, and foresaw what was coming: "Final lesson: Fatima - Padre Pio was even less obliging towards the prevailing social and political order, or rather, disorder (in 1966): "the confusion of ideas and the reign of thieves." He prophesied that the Communists would come to power, "by surprise, without firing a shot... It will happen overnight." This should not surprise us, since the requests of Our Lady of Fatima have not been listened to. He even told Bishop Piccinelli, that the red flag will fly over the Vatican, "but that will pass." Here again, his conclusion rejoins that of the Queen of Prophets: "But in the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph." The means by which this prophesy will come to pass, we know: by the divine power; but it must be prompted by the two great powers in man’s hands: prayer and penance. This is the lesson which our Lady wanted to remind us of at the beginning of this century: God wants to save the world by devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and there is no problem, material or spiritual, national or international, that cannot be solved by the holy rosary and our sacrifices. https://sspx.org/en/padre-pio-vatican-ii-new-mass

Summorum Pontificuм was a good thing for Tradition, it doesn't mean it is necessarily the final word, and we're allowed to ask for something even better from Rome, which is what the SSPX has done and what it will do under Rev. Father Davide Pagliarani. Here's a 2011 Interview from the new Superior General of the SSPX that shows his solidly traditional thought and praxis even before being SG.

http://archives.sspx.org/news/2011_archive/fr_davide_pagliarani-marco_bongi_interview_7-2011/fr_davide_pagliarani-marco_bongo_interview_part2.htm

Universae Ecclesiae that followed Summorum Pontificuм in 2011, I believe, was even better. Something in future could be better still. "The little good that we can do in Rome is probably more important than the great good that we can do elsewhere.” ... I think that Bishop de Galarreta’s remark sums up perfectly the Roman spirit with which the Society wants to serve the Roman Church: to do whatever is possible so that the Church can reclaim Her Tradition, starting with Rome itself. The history of the Church teaches us that no universal, effective and lasting reform is possible unless Rome makes that reform its own and it starts from Rome ... First of all the docuмent states precisely that the restoration of the 1962 liturgy is a universal law for the Church; in the second place the Instruction clearly makes an effort to defend, primarily in a strictly juridical context, the priests who have been prevented from using the Tridentine Missal by their ordinaries. With a certain finesse it reminds the bishops that it is up to them specifically to guarantee those rights… in order to safeguard them it is possible to appeal decisions made by the ordinaries themselves. These, I think, are the most positive points, drastically summarized." Father Pagliarani then goes on to mention some critiques and what could be bettered. The opponents of the Society are hardly representing the situation correctly. Many in the mainstream Church have benefited from SP.

Missed the earlier responses.
Hi, Mr. G. Thanks for your perspective. The issue here is that there is a difference between what the SSPX asks, and what Rome admits. Bishops who lived in Communist countries or in China today will have experience on negotiating with them, and know the difficulties it involves. It's not an easy task by any means, as I hope you will agree, Mr. G. His Excellency Bishop Fellay had asked 3 things from Rome. Some were granted partially. The SSPX will ask for more, as even some Cardinals and Bishops have recommended doing, if and when doctrinal discussions with Rome begin.

As Roman Catholics, we must not forget, that, in spite of everything, Rome is still our Mother Church. The Church built on St. Peter. The Church that inherits the divine Promise. The gates of hell will not prevail against Her, but we must also do our part.

Let me refer to a good Traditional Priest outside the SSPX, in the year 1967, "Your Holiness! If we do not receive a satisfactory answer from Your Holiness or at least are given an opportunity to discuss our requests and proposals with Your Holiness personally-within the next month, we shall consider our requests denied and our proposals rejected, and draw the sad and tragic conclusion that Our Mother the Church has temporarily abandoned the best ones of her children. I pray to God and to His blessed Mother whose Assumption we commemorate today -- and millions all over the world are joining me in this prayer -- that such a dark and tragic day will never come. But, if we have no other choice, we will jealously protect the small but still burning candle of our traditional Catholic Faith, and patiently carry on our spiritual "Resistance" movement without the hoped-for papal approval."http://www.latinmass-ctm.org/pub/archive.htm This was Fr. Gommar De Pauw. Do you agree with Father, Mr. G? 

Yes I agree it is not an easy task negotiating with communist but the issue was not about negotiating, it was claiming a "correction of injustice", which is not true. 
As for Fr. De Pauw statement, I do not know about the "proposals" he is referring to so I cannot answer at this time, plus his issue was not the topic of the "correction of injustice". I wil read the letter later.

Ok, Mr. G, forget Fr. Gommar for a minute, then. Here is just a sample of very many letters Archbishop Lefebvre sent the Pope asking for a solution, which H.G. says is the 7th letter, "May God come to your aid to restore to the Church the position and the rights which are Her due, for the glory of God and the salvation of souls. Please allow me to tell Your Holiness of the grief suffered by those thousands of priests and millions of the faithful who are desirous of preserving intact their Catholic Faith and of receiving the graces that they need so as to remain members of the Mystical Body of Our Lord, and who because of their fidelity are persecuted and despised by those who ought to encourage and comfort them. In the hope that at least the universal Father of the faithful will recognize their fidelity and their devotion to the Apostolic See, they await impatiently the result of proceedings undertaken with Your Holiness by the Society of St. Pius X.

Yet this is the seventh letter in two years which I send to Your Holiness; many a times, at your request, I have gone to talk to Cardinal Seper and Cardinal Palazzini. No reply, no solution has come to light so far."https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Apologia/Vol_three/Chapter_39.htm The Bishops of the SSPX have the right to do what their Saintly Founder did; to ask for the complete remedy of the injustices, but also be willing to accept temporarily, something less than ideal.

I quote Bishop Fellay's words for you referring to Archbishop Lefebvre's precedent, "when we compare the arguments given by Archbishop Lefebvre at that time we draw the conclusion that he would not have hesitated to accept what is being proposed to us. Let us not loose that sense of the Church, which was so strong in our venerated founder ... to refuse to work in the vineyard because there are still many weeds that risk stifling and obstructing the vine runs up against a notable lesson from the Bible: it is Our Lord Himself Who gives us to understand with His parable of the chaff that there will always be in one form or another weeds to be pulled up and fought against in His Church ... Our venerable founder gave to the Society bishops a task and precise duties. He made clear that the principle of unity in our Society is the Superior General ... We are praying hard for each of you that we may find ourselves all together once again in this fight which is far from over, for the greater glory of God and for love of our dear Society.

May Our Risen Lord and Our Lady deign to protect and bless you,
+Bernard Fellay..."

One Bishop does not make the Church.

First, declare your belief in Pope St. Pius X's Oath against Modernism, which teaches us, among other things, "I firmly hold, then, and shall hold to my dying breath the belief of the Fathers in the charism of truth, which certainly is, was, and always will be in the succession of the episcopacy from the apostles." Do you believe this and pledge to believe it to your dying breath, as the Pope commanded us? You give the appearance of believing differently - in a defectible church that lost apostolicity, where there are not at least a few good Catholic Bishops left, and that the Charism of the Truth of Faith has been lost forever. I don't believe you. I believe the Church.

Schneider is a new ordination rite priest ordained and consecrated by new formula bishops, he may just be a laymen like you.

The new rites for episcopal consecration and priestly ordination were quoted and the question discussed here, studying the deviation from the traditional rites. https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/question-about-new-rite-of-no/105/ Father Pierre Marie has explained it. Show us the research you have done if you want to bind the Bishops and Priests of the Society to a different conclusion. Btw, if a layman has personal doubts, he is entirely free to seek out Bishops and Priests Consecrated and Ordained in the traditional rite. But he is not free to presume to pass judgment on the new rite for others, which only our Bishops and Priests have the right to do, after investigating carefully all the specific details of the individual case. Fr. Marie also gave another reason the new rite can't be per se invalid, as you would know, if you had ready that study and conclusion which conclusively demonstrated the reality over a decade ago.

You are a brainwashed young man living in a dream world (or maybe you seek to make a living from the conciliar church and have to defend it to stay in business).

Thanks for your insults and taunts. May God bless you and yours, and I forgive your rash judgment. I have less than nothing to prove to you, but here are the facts. I had a successful career in the corporate world, and worked in a top company called BNY Mellon for a couple of years. But I will be leaving it behind to pursue a vocation in the SSPX because I believe that is what God has called me to do. The essence of consecrated and religious life is taught in the Gospel call, "Which when Jesus had heard, he said to him: Yet one thing is wanting to thee. Sell all whatever thou hast and give to the poor: and thou shalt have treasure in heaven. And come, follow me" (Luk 18:22). Rather than hurl abuses at others, strive to attain the perfection you are called to in your own state of life.