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Author Topic: Universal acceptance of a Pope  (Read 23098 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Universal acceptance of a Pope
« Reply #105 on: July 17, 2015, 02:58:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria
    I wish Fr. Cekada had spent a little more time on this topic.


    Yes, he really did gloss over it too quickly.  It's a CRUCIAL argument and can get pretty complicated ... and not solvable in quick soundbites.

    Online Ladislaus

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    « Reply #106 on: July 17, 2015, 03:01:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: Arvinger
    And within such a small percentage the sedevacantists and followers of the SSPX (often you can hear that there are many crypto-sedevacantists in the SSPX chapels, and even - as Bishop Sanborn claims - among the priests) suddenly become a serious number which puts into doubt the universal acceptance of V2 Popes. Lets not forget that +Lefebvre himself was a sede-doubtist and in his day there were many sedevacantists even in the SSPX and its seminaries whom the Archbishop had to remove.  


    Also, what does "recognition" mean?  Just to acknowledge him as legitimately elected (from the material standpoint)?  No, the theological rationale for WHY universal acceptance is infallible derives from the principle that the Church could not universally adhere to a FALSE RULE OF FAITH.  But the SSPX do NOT adhere to the V2 Popes are rules of faith, despite paying lip-service to their material possession of the See.


    Offline Nishant

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    Universal acceptance of a Pope
    « Reply #107 on: July 18, 2015, 11:14:58 AM »
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  • Dear Clemens Maria, remember Rev. Connell, a personal friend of Msgr. Fenton and editor of the American Ecclesiastical Review after him, clearly considered the legitimacy of Pope Paul VI to be a dogmatic fact in Dec. 1965. In 1965, we don't need to talk about Ordinaries or anything else (that only applies today, 50 years of an alleged sede vacante later), as Fr. Connell says "the whole Church, teaching and believing, declares and believes this fact and from this it follows that it is infallibly true" in the year 1965 that the Pope was the Pope.

    Actually, now that you mention it, Fr. Cekada did express publicly some thoughts precisely about universal acceptance etc, but it was in a conversation on Ignis Ardens which is now down. I think there's an excerpt of it on the Bellarmine forums somewhere, I may post it here later if I find it. It contains some interesting thoughts from Father, he also seemed to qualify somewhat his earlier position expressed in a discussion with Mr. Lane on the same forum that all bishops with ordinary jurisdiction could cease to exist, among other things.

    Anyway, for purposes of this thread, suffice to say with Fr. Hunter "it is enough to say that if the Bishops agree in recognizing a certain man as Pope, they are certainly right, for otherwise the body of the Bishops would be separated from their head, and the Divine constitution of the Church would be ruined." The reason for this is because, "The Church is infallible when She declares what person holds the office of Pope". This is a dogmatic fact, infallibly proved by the authority of the Church no less than the canonization of a Saint, or the declaration that some specific book contains errors opposed to the deposit of revelation, or the like. As Van Noort puts it, "the ordinary and universal magisterium is giving an utterly clear cut witness to the legitimacy of his succession".

    The only way 60 odd year sedevacantism can be saved is by positing that bishops appointed by the non-Pope/false Pope/material Pope/antiPope can become Ordinaries by said appointment. I don't agree with that theory, as it dispenses with the need for the Papacy altogether and reduces the Pope to a delegate of the Church, an error condemned in Vatican I. But that is a matter for another thread. Catholics should simply ask themselves, is a prelate like, say, Cardinal Burke or a Bishop Athanasius Catholic? Yes, clearly they are, even if like most Catholics today, they may hold a few errors in good faith. If they are Catholic, they are the legitimate authorities of the Church, which means we cannot separate from communion with them. Would someone really argue they don't recognize Pope Francis? If they recognize him and remain in communion with him, so must we, for we must remain in communion with them. The doctrine of universal acceptance is, therefore, simple Catholic common sense, which says we must remain in communion with the Sovereign Pontiff and the college of Bishops appointed by him if we wish to remain Roman Catholic. We can separate from individual Bishops whom we consider clearly heretical, on condition that they are declared as such later by the Pope, but not from the entire Apostolic hierarchy, nor from the Roman Church.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Universal acceptance of a Pope
    « Reply #108 on: July 18, 2015, 03:18:16 PM »
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  • I don't accuse the conservative NO folks of being non-Catholic but I do doubt the validity of their orders and the legitimacy of their appointments.  If I were to adopt your position I would also be compelled to accept the doctrine of V2.  It is as universally accepted as the Conciliar popes.  How could they be right about the pope but wrong about the Council?  But if they are wrong about some things, they could be wrong about many things.  Besides I don't count heretics as representatives of the Church.  ++Thuc, ++Lefebvre, +de Castro Mayer as well as others expressed doubt about P6.  So from where I stand I don't see universal acceptance.

    Online Ladislaus

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    « Reply #109 on: July 18, 2015, 03:54:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria
    If I were to adopt your position I would also be compelled to accept the doctrine of V2.


    THIS ^^^, Nishant.

    Msgr. Fenton, whom you're fond of quoting otherwise, also declares that such doctrine as Vatican II would be infallibly safe and that consequently no Catholic has a right to reject it.


    Offline Amakusa

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    Universal acceptance of a Pope
    « Reply #110 on: July 23, 2015, 01:26:47 AM »
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  • Nishant, you should distinguish the case of John XXIII and Paul VI in one hand, and that of "John Paul II" and his successors in another hand. While it is true that John XXIII and Paul VI were peacefully accepted, many Catholics did not obey Karol Wojtyla, and thus did not acknowledge him.

    The key issue is the new mass... Vatican II was not meant to be infallible, but a new liturgy is necessarily infallible; now, we can notice that the new mass has been harmful to the faith, which would be impossible if this liturgy had been approved by the Church. Therefore, it means that the new mass was not approved by Pope Paul VI; and indeed several books and private revelations have said it. The Novus Ordo, in its public version, is a forgery. The true version was okay. All the Vatican congregations were infiltrated by Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, and Cardinal Villot and his followers falsified many docuмents of the Pope.

    Cardinal Wojtyla was elected in a context of turmoil. Thousands of faithful, and hundreds of priests, did not obey him and built or bought their own chapels. These priests refused to celebrate the new mass. Wojtyla was not peacefully accepted, right from the beginning.

    I insist on the fact that peaceful acceptance is fulfilled once and for all: since it occured in the beginning of Paul VI's pontificate, it never vanished later on.

    Offline Gregory I

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    « Reply #111 on: July 23, 2015, 01:30:12 AM »
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  • Who and what were these significant numbers of faithful Catholics who had reason to suspect the election of Pope St. John Paul II? Did they voice their dissent publicly, and did their voice constitute a significant minority?

    Disobedience is not a sign of non-acceptance, but a sign of spiritual delusion.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline Amakusa

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    Universal acceptance of a Pope
    « Reply #112 on: July 23, 2015, 01:35:37 AM »
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  • All those Catholics who noticed that the new mass was harmful to the faith, since a very great number of faithful did not attend Mass any longer, and since they felt that their own faith was becoming weaker when attending the new mass.

    In France, many priests refused to say the new mass. The association "Noël Pinot" counted at least five hundred priests.


    Offline Gregory I

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    « Reply #113 on: July 23, 2015, 02:08:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: Amakusa
    All those Catholics who noticed that the new mass was harmful to the faith, since a very great number of faithful did not attend Mass any longer, and since they felt that their own faith was becoming weaker when attending the new mass.

    In France, many priests refused to say the new mass. The association "Noël Pinot" counted at least five hundred priests.


    That shows they dissented from the New Mass, not that they were sedevacantists. Where were the great multitudes declaring he was not the pope?
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline Amakusa

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    Universal acceptance of a Pope
    « Reply #114 on: July 23, 2015, 03:55:44 AM »
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  • Peaceful acceptance implies that the Catholics must acknowledge the Pope both theoretically and practically.

    Offline Nishant

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    Universal acceptance of a Pope
    « Reply #115 on: July 23, 2015, 06:51:12 AM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria
    Besides I don't count heretics as representatives of the Church. ++Thuc, ++Lefebvre, +de Castro Mayer as well as others expressed doubt about P6.


    But not in 1965. In trying to prove Vatican II is infallible, John Daly docuмents these facts for us, "almost all the world’s bishops were gathered together and at the moment of promulgation of the decrees by the man recognised as pope, not a dissenting voice was heard ... This proportion already surpasses the pro-infallibility consensus at Vatican I, which has always been regarded as morally unanimous ... and if any bishop continued to reject [Vatican II's promulgation] ... after its promulgation and despite his signature to it, the world’s Catholics remained entirely unaware of this fact for at least the next ten years." So, how do you explain that "the man recognised as pope", in Daly's own words, did this in 1965? If even in Dec 1965, he was accepted by the Church, clearly he could not have lost his office by then, so the sedevacantist explanation of Vatican II must be incorrect.

    Now, as for the other point you and Ladislaus bring up, I know some sedevacantists won't agree, but Vatican II isn't infallible, otherwise it would require the irrevocable assent of divine and Catholic Faith, but Pope Paul VI clearly said it required only the same religious obedience normally given to a Papal Encyclical, as we have discussed elsewhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsequium_religiosum Religious submission is mentioned in Vatican II itself and Donum Veritatis and other Magisterial docuмents clearly explain, in exceptional cases, witholding or reserving assent is allowed for theologians who are discussing the matter with the Holy See, as the Society is doing. "withholding assent is allowed for a theologian "who might have serious difficulties, for reasons which appear to him wellfounded, in accepting a non-irreformable magisterial teaching." ... the theologian will not present his own opinions or divergent hypotheses as though they were non-arguable conclusions," and is to "refrain from giving untimely public expression to them," and "avoid turning to the mass media," but with a humble and teachable spirit it is his duty "to make known to the Magisterial authorities the problems raised by the teaching in itself, in the arguments proposed to justify it, or even in the manner in which it is presented," with "an intense and patient reflection on his part and a readiness, if need be, to revise his own opinions and examine the objections which his colleagues might offer him." prayerfully trusting "that if the truth really is at stake, it will ultimately prevail."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsequium_religiosum Do you disagree with this? If so I can prove it from pre-Vatican II theological sources/

    Amakusa, with regard to later Popes, as we've discussed before, it is sufficient to show they are accepted by all the Bishops, or Ordinaries, of the Church. The faithful are not infallible in teaching or declaring, but only in believing and adhering. The Bishops infallibly declare the Pope is really the Pope and the faithful adhere to and believe this infallibly. Thus, to show the acceptance of the Ordinaries of the Church is in itself a sufficient proof, as Fr. Hunter clearly says. Besides, your theory simply does away with the dogma of the Church's visibility, and takes refuge in an alleged hidden hierarchy whom nobody can see or know, Dom Gueranger explains, following Vatican I, why the Church by necessity must be visible, "We, then, both priests and people, have a right to know whence our pastors have received their power. From whose hand have they received the keys? If their mission come from the apostolic see, let us honour and obey them, for they are sent to us by Jesus Christ, who has invested them, through Peter, with His own authority. If they claim our obedience without having been sent by the bishop of Rome, we must refuse to receive them ... for they have not been sent, they are not pastors. Thus it is that the divine Founder of the Church, who willed that she should be a city seated on a mountain/ gave her visibility; it was an essential requisite ; for since all were called to enter her pale, all must be able to see her." Theologians also say it is a "sign and infallible effect of a valid election" (Wernz-Vidal), because universal acceptance is a sign, it must be externally discernible and so is closely tied to the doctrine of the Church's visibility, which the living-Paul VI-double-in-hiding thesis denies.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.


    Offline Amakusa

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    Universal acceptance of a Pope
    « Reply #116 on: July 23, 2015, 10:28:57 AM »
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  • I agree with the first two paragraphs of your message:

    -the way the sedevacantists attempt to explain the crisis is incorrect
    -Vatican II was not meant to be infallible
    -we are not forced to assent to the liberal theories of the council, because of the circuмstances

    Regarding peaceful acceptance, it seems that you can quote only one theologian who said that the acceptance of the bishops in enough; well, his opinion is not true since it would not be a universal acceptance anymore.

    Regarding the visibility of the Church, I have mentioned this point in my French book, which sadly I have not the time to translate into English. First I explained that the faithful bishops, priests and lay men were the visible Church, even when they do not acknowledge Paul VI, for the traditionalist clergy holds its jurisdiction from him. The Catholic doctrine does not require that the Pope himself be always visible, since he has already been hidden or has went into exile. Then, while it is true that the visibility of the Church is more or less perceptible, nevertheless it would be an error to have a mere material definition of the visibility. Bossuet, when he argued against the Protestants (who deny the visibility of the Church), said that during the Catacombs, the Church remained visible...


    Online Ladislaus

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    « Reply #117 on: July 23, 2015, 11:15:02 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    Quote from: Clemens Maria
    Besides I don't count heretics as representatives of the Church. ++Thuc, ++Lefebvre, +de Castro Mayer as well as others expressed doubt about P6.


    But not in 1965. In trying to prove Vatican II is infallible, John Daly docuмents these facts for us, "almost all the world’s bishops were gathered together and at the moment of promulgation of the decrees by the man recognised as pope, not a dissenting voice was heard ... This proportion already surpasses the pro-infallibility consensus at Vatican I, which has always been regarded as morally unanimous ... and if any bishop continued to reject [Vatican II's promulgation] ... after its promulgation and despite his signature to it, the world’s Catholics remained entirely unaware of this fact for at least the next ten years." So, how do you explain that "the man recognised as pope", in Daly's own words, did this in 1965? If even in Dec 1965, he was accepted by the Church, clearly he could not have lost his office by then, so the sedevacantist explanation of Vatican II must be incorrect.


    Because I don't believe that an invalid election can be convalidated by "universal acceptance".  Several theological manuals cite legitimate election + universal acceptance (two criteria) as determining the dogmatic fact of papacy.

    We'll find that the answer lies in Cardinal Sir's election in 1958.

    This WILL come out in the wash.

    Online Ladislaus

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    « Reply #118 on: July 23, 2015, 11:22:18 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    I know some sedevacantists won't agree, but Vatican II isn't infallible, otherwise it would require the irrevocable assent of divine and Catholic Faith, but Pope Paul VI clearly said it required only the same religious obedience normally given to a Papal Encyclical, ...


    And yet you continue to ignore what Msgr. Fenton has to say about the authority of Papal Encyclicals.

    Quote from: Msgr. Fenton
    It might be definitely understood, however, that the Catholic’s duty to accept the teachings conveyed in the encyclicals even when the Holy Father does not propose such teachings as a part of his infallible magisterium is not based merely upon the dicta of the theologians. The authority which imposes this obligation is that of the Roman Pontiff himself. To the Holy Father’s responsibility of caring for the sheep of Christ’s fold, there corresponds, on the part of the Church’s membership, the basic obligation of following his directions, in doctrinal as well as disciplinary matters. In this field, God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. Hence there can be no valid reason to discountenance even the non-infallible teaching authority of Christ’s vicar on earth.
    ...
    It is, of course, possible that the Church might come to modify its stand on some detail of teaching presented as non-infallible matter in a papal encyclical. The nature of the auctoritas providentiae doctrinalis within the Church is such, however, that this fallibility extends to questions of relatively minute detail or of particular application. The body of doctrine on the rights and duties of labor, on the Church and State, or on any other subject treated extensively in a series of papal letters directed to and normative for the entire Church militant could not be radically or completely erroneous. The infallible security Christ wills that His disciples should enjoy within His Church is utterly incompatible with such a possibility.


    That's the typical R&R sleight of hand.  You argue that nothing in V2 has the notes of infallibility strictly speaking.

    Yet you posit a complete defection of the Magisterium, where the Magsiterium has gone SO BADLY OFF THE RAILS that it REQUIRES of Catholics the REFUSAL of submission to the Magisterium.  That would entail the defection of the Magisterium and therefore of the Church herself.

    You keep talking about how the Church would defect in the case of an extended sedevacante, but that's not necessarily the case (cf. the material-formal sedeprivationist thesis).  What's the point of the material continuity, Nishant, if the Magisterium itself can defect?  Well, for that matter, hierarchy would be BETTER OFF DEFECTING entirely if in fact their Magisterium does nothing more than lead people away from the faith.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    « Reply #119 on: July 23, 2015, 11:23:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    Quote from: Clemens Maria
    Besides I don't count heretics as representatives of the Church. ++Thuc, ++Lefebvre, +de Castro Mayer as well as others expressed doubt about P6.


    But not in 1965. In trying to prove Vatican II is infallible, John Daly docuмents these facts for us, "almost all the world’s bishops were gathered together and at the moment of promulgation of the decrees by the man recognised as pope, not a dissenting voice was heard ... This proportion already surpasses the pro-infallibility consensus at Vatican I, which has always been regarded as morally unanimous ... and if any bishop continued to reject [Vatican II's promulgation] ... after its promulgation and despite his signature to it, the world’s Catholics remained entirely unaware of this fact for at least the next ten years." So, how do you explain that "the man recognised as pope", in Daly's own words, did this in 1965? If even in Dec 1965, he was accepted by the Church, clearly he could not have lost his office by then, so the sedevacantist explanation of Vatican II must be incorrect.

    Now, as for the other point you and Ladislaus bring up, I know some sedevacantists won't agree, but Vatican II isn't infallible, ...


    You are arguing in circles again.  It is the docuмents of V2 which are problematic.  On this point ++Lefebvre is in agreement with the sedevacantists.  There are heresies in the docuмents.  Can a true pope teach heresies and bind the faithful to them?  No.  We are in agreement on that.  So how do we explain it?  You claim that an ecuмenical council of the Church approved by the Pope is not an infallible exercise of the Magisterium.  That is novel.  It is unheard of in the history of the Church.  SVs claim that the heresies in the docuмents prove that Paul VI was not a true Pope.  The SVs have a lot of traditional docuмentation backing up their position.  But your position requires the acceptance of a novelty.  Maybe you will be proven correct in the future.  I don't know.  But at the moment the safest thing to do is to accept the traditional views on the legitimacy of papal claims especially with regard to manifest heretics.

    Also, John Lane has pointed out that even in 1965 there was great turmoil in the Church.  He even points out that the American Ecclesiastical Review published (in 1965) a response to a question apparently coming from readers on how we can be sure that P6 is a true pope.  That is an indication of the unrest at the time.