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Author Topic: Universal acceptance of a Pope  (Read 40128 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Universal acceptance of a Pope
« Reply #105 on: July 17, 2015, 02:58:37 PM »
Quote from: Clemens Maria
I wish Fr. Cekada had spent a little more time on this topic.


Yes, he really did gloss over it too quickly.  It's a CRUCIAL argument and can get pretty complicated ... and not solvable in quick soundbites.

Offline Ladislaus

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Universal acceptance of a Pope
« Reply #106 on: July 17, 2015, 03:01:51 PM »
Quote from: Arvinger
And within such a small percentage the sedevacantists and followers of the SSPX (often you can hear that there are many crypto-sedevacantists in the SSPX chapels, and even - as Bishop Sanborn claims - among the priests) suddenly become a serious number which puts into doubt the universal acceptance of V2 Popes. Lets not forget that +Lefebvre himself was a sede-doubtist and in his day there were many sedevacantists even in the SSPX and its seminaries whom the Archbishop had to remove.  


Also, what does "recognition" mean?  Just to acknowledge him as legitimately elected (from the material standpoint)?  No, the theological rationale for WHY universal acceptance is infallible derives from the principle that the Church could not universally adhere to a FALSE RULE OF FAITH.  But the SSPX do NOT adhere to the V2 Popes are rules of faith, despite paying lip-service to their material possession of the See.


Universal acceptance of a Pope
« Reply #107 on: July 18, 2015, 11:14:58 AM »
Dear Clemens Maria, remember Rev. Connell, a personal friend of Msgr. Fenton and editor of the American Ecclesiastical Review after him, clearly considered the legitimacy of Pope Paul VI to be a dogmatic fact in Dec. 1965. In 1965, we don't need to talk about Ordinaries or anything else (that only applies today, 50 years of an alleged sede vacante later), as Fr. Connell says "the whole Church, teaching and believing, declares and believes this fact and from this it follows that it is infallibly true" in the year 1965 that the Pope was the Pope.

Actually, now that you mention it, Fr. Cekada did express publicly some thoughts precisely about universal acceptance etc, but it was in a conversation on Ignis Ardens which is now down. I think there's an excerpt of it on the Bellarmine forums somewhere, I may post it here later if I find it. It contains some interesting thoughts from Father, he also seemed to qualify somewhat his earlier position expressed in a discussion with Mr. Lane on the same forum that all bishops with ordinary jurisdiction could cease to exist, among other things.

Anyway, for purposes of this thread, suffice to say with Fr. Hunter "it is enough to say that if the Bishops agree in recognizing a certain man as Pope, they are certainly right, for otherwise the body of the Bishops would be separated from their head, and the Divine constitution of the Church would be ruined." The reason for this is because, "The Church is infallible when She declares what person holds the office of Pope". This is a dogmatic fact, infallibly proved by the authority of the Church no less than the canonization of a Saint, or the declaration that some specific book contains errors opposed to the deposit of revelation, or the like. As Van Noort puts it, "the ordinary and universal magisterium is giving an utterly clear cut witness to the legitimacy of his succession".

The only way 60 odd year sedevacantism can be saved is by positing that bishops appointed by the non-Pope/false Pope/material Pope/antiPope can become Ordinaries by said appointment. I don't agree with that theory, as it dispenses with the need for the Papacy altogether and reduces the Pope to a delegate of the Church, an error condemned in Vatican I. But that is a matter for another thread. Catholics should simply ask themselves, is a prelate like, say, Cardinal Burke or a Bishop Athanasius Catholic? Yes, clearly they are, even if like most Catholics today, they may hold a few errors in good faith. If they are Catholic, they are the legitimate authorities of the Church, which means we cannot separate from communion with them. Would someone really argue they don't recognize Pope Francis? If they recognize him and remain in communion with him, so must we, for we must remain in communion with them. The doctrine of universal acceptance is, therefore, simple Catholic common sense, which says we must remain in communion with the Sovereign Pontiff and the college of Bishops appointed by him if we wish to remain Roman Catholic. We can separate from individual Bishops whom we consider clearly heretical, on condition that they are declared as such later by the Pope, but not from the entire Apostolic hierarchy, nor from the Roman Church.

Universal acceptance of a Pope
« Reply #108 on: July 18, 2015, 03:18:16 PM »
I don't accuse the conservative NO folks of being non-Catholic but I do doubt the validity of their orders and the legitimacy of their appointments.  If I were to adopt your position I would also be compelled to accept the doctrine of V2.  It is as universally accepted as the Conciliar popes.  How could they be right about the pope but wrong about the Council?  But if they are wrong about some things, they could be wrong about many things.  Besides I don't count heretics as representatives of the Church.  ++Thuc, ++Lefebvre, +de Castro Mayer as well as others expressed doubt about P6.  So from where I stand I don't see universal acceptance.

Offline Ladislaus

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Universal acceptance of a Pope
« Reply #109 on: July 18, 2015, 03:54:44 PM »
Quote from: Clemens Maria
If I were to adopt your position I would also be compelled to accept the doctrine of V2.


THIS ^^^, Nishant.

Msgr. Fenton, whom you're fond of quoting otherwise, also declares that such doctrine as Vatican II would be infallibly safe and that consequently no Catholic has a right to reject it.