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Author Topic: Universal Acceptance is a Catholic Doctrine, not mere theological opinion.  (Read 4044 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Universal Acceptance is a Catholic Doctrine, not mere theological opinion.
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2019, 11:00:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 31, 2019, 09:43:49 AM
    This is a good point.  UA does not cause a legitimate papacy, but it can be considered a criterion for the subjective certainty regarding it.
    I don't see how. Being that the idea comes from some theologians and is not a teaching or doctrine of the Church, "UA" can only mean a few things; 1) all the cardinals in the conclave accept him as pope, 2) there were no objections based on any canonical impediments or irregularities among the cardinals, 3) back in the olden days, the most common way to know who the pope was, was  by word of mouth, which is to say you wouldn't know until everyone else knew.

    If UA actually means what it says, then it can only mean one thing, it can only mean that the Church always has, and always will accept with dogmatic certainty whoever gets elected as the true pope no matter how he gets elected, albeit this goes without saying.  
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Universal Acceptance is a Catholic Doctrine, not mere theological opinion.
    « Reply #16 on: October 31, 2019, 11:18:25 AM »
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    • Let's take this hypothetical scenario.

    You have a conclave where a man is elected pope, accepts, and takes the name Pope A.  But before the conclave ends and the man is shown to the world, the Cardinals change their mind, depose Pope A, and elect instead Pope B.  Then the conclave ends and they roll out Pope B as the Pope.  You have Universal Acceptance of Pope B.  Yet clearly Pope A is still the legitimate pope.  Universal Acceptance cannot depose an otherwise legitimate pope.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Universal Acceptance is a Catholic Doctrine, not mere theological opinion.
    « Reply #17 on: October 31, 2019, 11:36:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 31, 2019, 11:18:25 AM
    Let's take this hypothetical scenario.

    You have a conclave where a man is elected pope, accepts, and takes the name Pope A.  But before the conclave ends and the man is shown to the world, the Cardinals change their mind, depose Pope A, and elect instead Pope B.  Then the conclave ends and they roll out Pope B as the Pope.  You have Universal Acceptance of Pope B.  Yet clearly Pope A is still the legitimate pope.  Universal Acceptance cannot depose an otherwise legitimate pope.
    I wish that was only a hypothetical scenario. 
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    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Universal Acceptance is a Catholic Doctrine, not mere theological opinion.
    « Reply #18 on: October 31, 2019, 12:36:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 31, 2019, 11:18:25 AM
    Let's take this hypothetical scenario.

    You have a conclave where a man is elected pope, accepts, and takes the name Pope A.  But before the conclave ends and the man is shown to the world, the Cardinals change their mind, depose Pope A, and elect instead Pope B.  Then the conclave ends and they roll out Pope B as the Pope.  You have Universal Acceptance of Pope B.  Yet clearly Pope A is still the legitimate pope.  Universal Acceptance cannot depose an otherwise legitimate pope.

    In your "hypothetical" scenario, the peaceful acceptance of Pope B (John XXIII) would prove that, for whatever reason, Pope A (Siri) was not the Pope.  It wouldn't depose Pope A, but would prove that A wasn't the Pope.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Universal Acceptance is a Catholic Doctrine, not mere theological opinion.
    « Reply #19 on: October 31, 2019, 12:53:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Praeter on October 31, 2019, 12:36:19 PM
    In your "hypothetical" scenario, the peaceful acceptance of Pope B (John XXIII) would prove that, for whatever reason, Pope A (Siri) was not the Pope.  It wouldn't depose Pope A, but would prove that A wasn't the Pope.
    It would prove that A wasn't the Pope, while proving B was the pope - which pretty much puts AU directly in the trash bin far as giving dogmatic certainty of who the pope is in that hypothetical scenario.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Universal Acceptance is a Catholic Doctrine, not mere theological opinion.
    « Reply #20 on: October 31, 2019, 04:14:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Praeter on October 31, 2019, 10:47:39 AM
    I've looked into those cases and the history is sketchy, to say the least.  From what I've found, the only time another pope was peacefully accepted after the previous pope was illegally deposed, is when the original pope submitted to the illegal deposition, which the theologians said was equivalent to a resignation.  
    The historians do not agree with you.  The Liber Pontificalis has Pope Martin I still being the pope more than a year AFTER Pope St Eugene I was elected.  Those theologians who wrote about UPA would have been aware of that.
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    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Universal Acceptance is a Catholic Doctrine, not mere theological opinion.
    « Reply #21 on: October 31, 2019, 05:12:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 31, 2019, 12:53:54 PM
    It would prove that A wasn't the Pope, while proving B was the pope - which pretty much puts AU directly in the trash bin far as giving dogmatic certainty of who the pope is in that hypothetical scenario.
    I don't know why you would say that. The peaceful acceptance of Pope B proves he's the Pope; and therefore proves that A is not the Pope.  
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Universal Acceptance is a Catholic Doctrine, not mere theological opinion.
    « Reply #22 on: October 31, 2019, 05:55:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Praeter on October 31, 2019, 05:12:02 PM
    I don't know why you would say that. The peaceful acceptance of Pope B proves he's the Pope; and therefore proves that A is not the Pope.  
    See Clemens Maria's response.
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    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Universal Acceptance is a Catholic Doctrine, not mere theological opinion.
    « Reply #23 on: October 31, 2019, 07:07:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 31, 2019, 04:14:15 PM
    The historians do not agree with you.  The Liber Pontificalis has Pope Martin I still being the pope more than a year AFTER Pope St Eugene I was elected.  Those theologians who wrote about UPA would have been aware of that.

    What do the historians not agree with?  You didn't provide a shred of evidence that contradicts UPA.   All you did was refer to a historical case from the 7th century, about which very little is known, and say the Liber Pontificals reports that Martin I was the Pope a year after an unnamed source says Eugene was elected. Even if those two facts are correct, how do you know Eugene was universally accepted before Pope Martin subsequently acquiesced in his election (Ep. Martin xvii in P.L. LXXXVII.?

    Sorry, but it will take a lot more "evidence" than what you provided for a Traditional Catholic to reject a doctrine that was unanimously held by all theologians before Vatican II as theologically certain. It is becoming difficult to find anyone that claims to be a Traditional Catholic who accepts Traditional doctrine and Traditional theology as it was taught in the seminaries in the centuries before the council.  
      
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Universal Acceptance is a Catholic Doctrine, not mere theological opinion.
    « Reply #24 on: October 31, 2019, 11:17:14 PM »
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    • Look, I’m not denying UPA in principle, I’m saying you and your buddies Salsa and Disco are misapplying the doctrine.  How are you any different than the Arians?  Anywhere from 75 to 90% of the bishops fell into heresy.  If you were alive at that time you would be telling us that the Arians have to be infallibly correct because of practical unanimity.  They were wrong and you are wrong.  Heretics and apostates don’t get to vote on who is a true pope.  But I will grant you that the history of the papacy is obscure at times.  But that doesn’t help your case as far as the correct application of the principle at this moment in time.
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    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Universal Acceptance is a Catholic Doctrine, not mere theological opinion.
    « Reply #25 on: November 01, 2019, 02:37:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 31, 2019, 11:17:14 PM
    Look, I’m not denying UPA in principle, I’m saying you and your buddies Salsa and Disco are misapplying the doctrine.  

    How am I missapplying the doctrine?

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    How are you any different than the Arians?  


    One difference that comes to mind is that I reject the Arian heresy.  


    Quote
    Anywhere from 75 to 90% of the bishops fell into heresy.  If you were alive at that time you would be telling us that the Arians have to be infallibly correct because of practical unanimity.

    No, but (if I were alive then, and I know what I do now, and), if you denied the legitimacy of a Pope that the entire Church accepted, I would have used the UPA doctrine to refute your error that led you into schism. And history proves that I would have been right, and you would have wrong, since every Pope that was universally accepted during the Arian heresy was the true Pope.


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    They were wrong and you are wrong.

    They were wrong about doctrine, but they weren't wrong about the identity of the Pope. All the true Catholics agreed avout who the true Pope was, and the Arians agreed with them

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    Heretics and apostates don’t get to vote on who is a true pope.

    I agree that the vote of public heretics and apostates doesn't count. That's why your vote doesn't count today, just as the vote of every other fallen away Catholic who left the Church for a heretical sect doesn't count.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Universal Acceptance is a Catholic Doctrine, not mere theological opinion.
    « Reply #26 on: November 01, 2019, 05:47:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Praeter on October 31, 2019, 05:12:02 PM
    I don't know why you would say that. The peaceful acceptance of Pope B proves he's the Pope; and therefore proves that A is not the Pope.  
    No, Pope A was elected and accepted his election, he is therefore the legitimate pope, the scenario says: "You have a conclave where a man is elected pope, accepts..."  without regard to UA, this makes him the legitimate pope. There is no getting out of this.

    Then it says: "the Cardinals change their mind, depose Pope A, and elect instead Pope B". The Cardinals already elected Pope A, so Pope A is the pope, it is too late for them to do anything about it, the stupid cardinals can change their minds all they want and vote 8 more times till the scenario plays out all the way to Pope H, but that will not change the fact that Pope A is the pope. Their change of mind does not depose the legitimate pope, Pope A in this scenario is the pope.

    It goes on; "Then the conclave ends and they roll out Pope H as the Pope.  You have Universal Acceptance of Pope H". Which is to say that UA is a farce, a phony and a lie because it is used to deceive the people into believing that the one who is the pope is not the pope, while at the same time it deceives the people into believing in one who is not the pope, is the pope.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Universal Acceptance is a Catholic Doctrine, not mere theological opinion.
    « Reply #27 on: November 01, 2019, 05:57:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 01, 2019, 05:47:22 AM
    No, Pope A was elected and accepted his election, he is therefore the legitimate pope, the scenario says: "You have a conclave where a man is elected pope, accepts..."  without regard to UA, this makes him the legitimate pope. There is no getting out of this.

    Then it says: "the Cardinals change their mind, depose Pope A, and elect instead Pope B". The Cardinals already elected Pope A, so Pope A is the pope, it is too late for them to do anything about it, the stupid cardinals can change their minds all they want and vote 8 more times till the scenario plays out all the way to Pope H, but that will not change the fact that Pope A is the pope. Their change of mind does not depose the legitimate pope, Pope A in this scenario is the pope.

    It goes on; "Then the conclave ends and they roll out Pope H as the Pope.  You have Universal Acceptance of Pope H". Which is to say that UA is a farce, a phony and a lie because it is used to deceive the people into believing that the one who is the pope is not the pope, while at the same time it deceives the people into believing in one who is not the pope, is the pope.
    Problem is, without UPA you may never know was there secretly a Pope A(e.g Siri). 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Universal Acceptance is a Catholic Doctrine, not mere theological opinion.
    « Reply #28 on: November 01, 2019, 06:03:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on November 01, 2019, 05:57:37 AM
    Problem is, without UPA you may never know was there secretly a Pope A(e.g Siri).
    The problem also is, using UPA you still may never know. Which is why we know it is not a Catholic doctrine.

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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Universal Acceptance is a Catholic Doctrine, not mere theological opinion.
    « Reply #29 on: November 01, 2019, 06:51:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Praeter on November 01, 2019, 02:37:21 AM
    How am I missapplying the doctrine?


    One difference that comes to mind is that I reject the Arian heresy.  


    No, but (if I were alive then, and I know what I do now, and), if you denied the legitimacy of a Pope that the entire Church accepted, I would have used the UPA doctrine to refute your error that led you into schism. And history proves that I would have been right, and you would have wrong, since every Pope that was universally accepted during the Arian heresy was the true Pope.


    They were wrong about doctrine, but they weren't wrong about the identity of the Pope. All the true Catholics agreed avout who the true Pope was, and the Arians agreed with them

    I agree that the vote of public heretics and apostates doesn't count. That's why your vote doesn't count today, just as the vote of every other fallen away Catholic who left the Church for a heretical sect doesn't count.
    Even the Arians unlike you would have refused to follow a devil-worshiping layman.  In your blindness you are now making the SSPX to be the guarantor of Catholic orthodoxy.  But Our Lord didn’t make the SSPX to be the Vicar of Christ.  He made Peter and his successors to be the supreme authority on matters of faith and morals.  If you have UPA then you also have absolute confidence in the truth of the pope’s doctrine.  But you don’t conform yourself to his doctrine and therefore you are a hypocrite.  The only way your position can be justified is if there isn’t UPA.
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