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Author Topic: Unity of The Church- Satis Cognitum- Pope Leo XIII  (Read 1990 times)

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Offline Carissima

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Unity of The Church- Satis Cognitum- Pope Leo XIII
« on: September 20, 2017, 11:30:35 PM »
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  • "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph. iv., 5). That is, as there is one Lord and one baptism, so should all Christians, without exception, have but one faith. And so the Apostle St. Paul not merely begs, but entreats and implores Christians to be all of the same mind, and to avoid difference of opinions: "I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms amongst you, and that you be perfect in the same mind and in the same judgment" (I Cor. i., 10). 

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_l-xiii_enc_29061896_satis-cognitum.html

    Please do not accuse me of asking a loaded question here, for me it is an honest one. 
    Where is IT? The UNITY? 

    This is a serious problem for outsiders (or fallen away Catholics like my husband) who are beyond confused and trust NO ONE. 
    And because these here all lay claim to Her, Sedevacantists, Fr Pfeiffer and Co., FSSP and NO all believe that they alone are the Church Unified. 

    Many Catholics quote private revelation like Fatima, La Salette, Quito and others about the crisis to come, the apostasy, and how The Church will go into hiding. 

    How can The Catholic Church go into hiding if She is to always be visible?

    Is She visible to me by the guy sitting at home reading his Sunday Missal? The one whom I'll never meet?
    (forgive me I mean nothing ill to anyone in this position, I have been there personally) 

    I am Traditional Catholic 100%, reject all heresies, and especially hate modernism, and yet, would be accused by the above persons (at least some) of being outside the Church because I believe She may still be visible. 



    Somehow She must be. 




    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Unity of The Church- Satis Cognitum- Pope Leo XIII
    « Reply #1 on: September 21, 2017, 01:00:00 AM »
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  • "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph. iv., 5). That is, as there is one Lord and one baptism, so should all Christians, without exception, have but one faith. And so the Apostle St. Paul not merely begs, but entreats and implores Christians to be all of the same mind, and to avoid difference of opinions: "I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms amongst you, and that you be perfect in the same mind and in the same judgment" (I Cor. i., 10).

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_l-xiii_enc_29061896_satis-cognitum.html

    Please do not accuse me of asking a loaded question here, for me it is an honest one.
    Where is IT? The UNITY?

    This is a serious problem for outsiders (or fallen away Catholics like my husband) who are beyond confused and trust NO ONE.
    And because these here all lay claim to Her, Sedevacantists, Fr Pfeiffer and Co., FSSP and NO all believe that they alone are the Church Unified.

    Many Catholics quote private revelation like Fatima, La Salette, Quito and others about the crisis to come, the apostasy, and how The Church will go into hiding.

    How can The Catholic Church go into hiding if She is to always be visible?

    Is She visible to me by the guy sitting at home reading his Sunday Missal? The one whom I'll never meet?
    (forgive me I mean nothing ill to anyone in this position, I have been there personally)

    I am Traditional Catholic 100%, reject all heresies, and especially hate modernism, and yet, would be accused by the above persons (at least some) of being outside the Church because I believe She may still be visible.



    Somehow She must be.
    "Japan was forced to open to foreign interaction by Matthew Perry in 1853. It became possible for foreigners to live in Japan with the hαɾɾιs Treaty in 1858. Many Christian clergymen were sent from Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox Churches, though proselytizing was still banned. In 1865, some of the Japanese who lived in Urakami village near Nagasaki visited the new Ōura Church which had been built by the Paris Foreign Missions Society (Missions étrangères de Paris) barely a month before. A female member of the group spoke to a French priest, Bernard Thadee Petitjean, and confessed that their families had kept the Kirishitan faith. Those Kirishitan wanted to see the statue of St. Mary with their own eyes, and to confirm that the priest was single and truly came from the pope in Rome. After this interview, many Kirishitan thronged toward Petitjean. He investigated their underground organizations and discovered that they had kept the rite of baptism and the liturgical years without European priests for nearly 250 years. Petitjean’s report surprised the Christian world; Pope Pius IX called it a miracle." (f/ "Kirishitan" via Wikipedia, emph. DZ P)

    PS, if this is another Flatty ambush, don't expect another response from my end any time soon.
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Anothersoul

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    Re: Unity of The Church- Satis Cognitum- Pope Leo XIII
    « Reply #2 on: September 21, 2017, 09:27:13 AM »
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  • "Japan was forced to open to foreign interaction by Matthew Perry in 1853. It became possible for foreigners to live in Japan with the hαɾɾιs Treaty in 1858. Many Christian clergymen were sent from Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox Churches, though proselytizing was still banned. In 1865, some of the Japanese who lived in Urakami village near Nagasaki visited the new Ōura Church which had been built by the Paris Foreign Missions Society (Missions étrangères de Paris) barely a month before. A female member of the group spoke to a French priest, Bernard Thadee Petitjean, and confessed that their families had kept the Kirishitan faith. Those Kirishitan wanted to see the statue of St. Mary with their own eyes, and to confirm that the priest was single and truly came from the pope in Rome. After this interview, many Kirishitan thronged toward Petitjean. He investigated their underground organizations and discovered that they had kept the rite of baptism and the liturgical years without European priests for nearly 250 years. Petitjean’s report surprised the Christian world; Pope Pius IX called it a miracle." (f/ "Kirishitan" via Wikipedia, emph. DZ P)

    PS, if this is another Flatty ambush, don't expect another response from my end any time soon.
    A very nice story, but still no visibility of The Church. Where was the pope and heirachy of the Church at the time? Kinda important. 
    PS I don't see how this post could ever be a 'flatty' anything 

    Offline Carissima

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    Re: Unity of The Church- Satis Cognitum- Pope Leo XIII
    « Reply #3 on: September 21, 2017, 09:57:41 AM »
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  • PS I don't see how this post could ever be a 'flatty' anything
    He means 'flat earth' talk from the flat earth threads. 
    My reputation proceeded me here. 

    Offline Carissima

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    Re: Unity of The Church- Satis Cognitum- Pope Leo XIII
    « Reply #4 on: September 21, 2017, 10:02:47 AM »
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  • "Japan was forced to open to foreign interaction by Matthew Perry in 1853. It became possible for foreigners to live in Japan with the hαɾɾιs Treaty in 1858. Many Christian clergymen were sent from Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox Churches, though proselytizing was still banned. In 1865, some of the Japanese who lived in Urakami village near Nagasaki visited the new Ōura Church which had been built by the Paris Foreign Missions Society (Missions étrangères de Paris) barely a month before. A female member of the group spoke to a French priest, Bernard Thadee Petitjean, and confessed that their families had kept the Kirishitan faith. Those Kirishitan wanted to see the statue of St. Mary with their own eyes, and to confirm that the priest was single and truly came from the pope in Rome. After this interview, many Kirishitan thronged toward Petitjean. He investigated their underground organizations and discovered that they had kept the rite of baptism and the liturgical years without European priests for nearly 250 years. Petitjean’s report surprised the Christian world; Pope Pius IX called it a miracle." (f/ "Kirishitan" via Wikipedia, emph. DZ P)

    Are you saying The Church only existed in this group of people without any popes bishops or priests?


    Offline Carissima

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    Re: Unity of The Church- Satis Cognitum- Pope Leo XIII
    « Reply #5 on: September 21, 2017, 10:21:35 AM »
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  • Just to clarify to anyone- I am here to ask other Catholics about the UNITY of the Church and VISIBILITY of the Church.

    How important are they to you and do you acknowledge them in your decision to become Sedevacantist?


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Unity of The Church- Satis Cognitum- Pope Leo XIII
    « Reply #6 on: September 21, 2017, 11:14:24 AM »
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  • They are Dogmatically important to all Catholics. Whether there is not a Pope reigning or there is not a Bishop in control of a certain See at any give time does not break that unity or visibility of the Church. If it did there would be many times in Church history where that unity would have been broken, which is not possible.
    The child screams as mother leaves,
    "Alas, she is no more."

    anon

    I'm sorry; I apologize to nothing nor none, for what I cannot sense, must not be.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Carissima

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    Re: Unity of The Church- Satis Cognitum- Pope Leo XIII
    « Reply #7 on: September 21, 2017, 11:22:54 AM »
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  • They are Dogmatically important to all Catholics. Whether there is not a Pope reigning or there is not a Bishop in control of a certain See at any give time does not break that unity or visibility of the Church. If it did there would be many times in Church history where that unity would have been broken, which is not possible.
    So having no visible priests or bishops or popes does not affect the visibility of the Church? The visibility then would be the guy at home reading his missal? (Again no offense to him) 


    Offline Carissima

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    Re: Unity of The Church- Satis Cognitum- Pope Leo XIII
    « Reply #8 on: September 21, 2017, 11:42:35 AM »
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  • When a Pope dies and before one is elected, do you think the Church loses it's Visibility and Unity, does it cease to be One? After all, these things are intrinsically linked to the Pope.
    So is length of time not a factor in an interregnum?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Unity of The Church- Satis Cognitum- Pope Leo XIII
    « Reply #9 on: September 21, 2017, 12:37:40 PM »
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  • Also, there have been theologians who said that if the Great Western Schism would have been different in that there were no valid Pope in the duration, it would not have mattered (paraphrasing, I could get you the quote if needed).
    Makes more sense, is according to the teaching of the Church (as opposed to speculations of theologians) and therefore is easier to believe, that the conciliar popes have all been popes, then it is to be convince yourself for no reason whatsoever, that there has been a +50 year and counting interregnum.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Unity of The Church- Satis Cognitum- Pope Leo XIII
    « Reply #10 on: September 21, 2017, 12:39:11 PM »
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  • Defection "more gooder than" vacancy.

    Got it.
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Unity of The Church- Satis Cognitum- Pope Leo XIII
    « Reply #11 on: September 21, 2017, 12:40:22 PM »
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  • "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph. iv., 5). That is, as there is one Lord and one baptism, so should all Christians, without exception, have but one faith. And so the Apostle St. Paul not merely begs, but entreats and implores Christians to be all of the same mind, and to avoid difference of opinions: "I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms amongst you, and that you be perfect in the same mind and in the same judgment" (I Cor. i., 10).

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_l-xiii_enc_29061896_satis-cognitum.html

    Please do not accuse me of asking a loaded question here, for me it is an honest one.
    Where is IT? The UNITY?

    This is a serious problem for outsiders (or fallen away Catholics like my husband) who are beyond confused and trust NO ONE.
    And because these here all lay claim to Her, Sedevacantists, Fr Pfeiffer and Co., FSSP and NO all believe that they alone are the Church Unified.

    Many Catholics quote private revelation like Fatima, La Salette, Quito and others about the crisis to come, the apostasy, and how The Church will go into hiding.

    How can The Catholic Church go into hiding if She is to always be visible?

    Is She visible to me by the guy sitting at home reading his Sunday Missal? The one whom I'll never meet?
    (forgive me I mean nothing ill to anyone in this position, I have been there personally)

    I am Traditional Catholic 100%, reject all heresies, and especially hate modernism, and yet, would be accused by the above persons (at least some) of being outside the Church because I believe She may still be visible.



    Somehow She must be.


    Well, we live in such confusing times, with a severe Crisis in the Church. So the visibility is an issue that isn't necessarily settled (except among certain trads). I can understand your husband giving up, since it's all so confusing, and staying with the Church through tradition usually means taking a side, or picking a spot among trads groups who make the most sense to us. It's unpleasant when trads begin to anathematize each other over issues like this, though. Or any issue, really.

    I take Archbishop Lefebvre's position, which is that the Church is occupied by a Modernist sect. As far as exactly where the visible Church is, I don't know exactly, though the conciliar church still has some of the aspects of the Catholic faith that remain, when those in the Novus Ordo system believe, teach, and worship according to the True Church, which isn't common, but it does exist. I believe that the Novus Ordo system itself is schismatic, though the Novus Ordo people don't always know that.

    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Unity of The Church- Satis Cognitum- Pope Leo XIII
    « Reply #12 on: September 21, 2017, 12:53:35 PM »
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  • Defection "more gooder than" vacancy.

    Got it.
    It really has nothing to do with what's gooder.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Unity of The Church- Satis Cognitum- Pope Leo XIII
    « Reply #13 on: September 21, 2017, 01:02:48 PM »
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  • Well, we live in such confusing times, with a severe Crisis in the Church. So the visibility is an issue that isn't necessarily settled (except among certain trads). I can understand your husband giving up, since it's all so confusing, and staying with the Church through tradition usually means taking a side, or picking a spot among trads groups who make the most sense to us. It's unpleasant when trads begin to anathematize each other over issues like this, though. Or any issue, really.

    I take Archbishop Lefebvre's position, which is that the Church is occupied by a Modernist sect. As far as exactly where the visible Church is, I don't know exactly, though the conciliar church still has some of the aspects of the Catholic faith that remain, when those in the Novus Ordo system believe, teach, and worship according to the True Church, which isn't common, but it does exist. I believe that the Novus Ordo system itself is schismatic, though the Novus Ordo people don't always know that.
    Unity, as one of the marks of the Church, comes from Christ, through the Church, through faith - unity of faith. Without faith there is neither unity nor visibility. Without faith, one is blind - one who is blinded by lack of faith and is sitting in first pew will not even see the Church.

    In these days, like always, we must have great faith. It is with faith that we see the Church, that it is visible, alive and triumphing and will continue on as such till the end of time per the Divine plan -  just as without faith we cannot see it - but not because it's not there.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Carissima

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    Re: Unity of The Church- Satis Cognitum- Pope Leo XIII
    « Reply #14 on: September 21, 2017, 01:23:59 PM »
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  • Makes more sense, is according to the teaching of the Church (as opposed to speculations of theologians) and therefore is easier to believe, that the conciliar popes have all been popes, then it is to be convince yourself for no reason whatsoever, that there has been a +50 year and counting interregnum.
    50 years makes no sense to me either. That is why I asked about length of time period, but so far, and according to even seven, there was a time in history recording four years of an interregnum? Hmm