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Author Topic: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church  (Read 2983 times)

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Offline Matthew

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I assume the expression "Unite the Clans" comes from the famous movie Braveheart (1995, starring Mel Gibson).

It's one of those soundbites that SOUNDS GOOD until you give it more than 60 seconds' thought. It's a slogan for the current age, the age of distractions, the age of clickbait, Social Media, and shallow slogans and propaganda.

But to return to my point --
In the movie "Braveheart", the Scottish nobles' constant in-fighting weakens the Scottish cause and allows the English to run roughshod over them, dominate them politically and militarily, and make their lives miserable.

But in that movie (historical reality aside), there was a clear leader that everyone would and SHOULD rally around: Robert the Bruce.

In the Crisis of the Church, and the world of Tradition, there IS no such leader or heir-apparent. There is no one that stands out as different from everyone else. All are doing the same things, with the same justifications: practicing pre-Vatican II Catholicism, offering Mass and pre-V2 sacraments despite lack of Roman permission and in some cases in defiance of Roman authority, etc.

I'm serious. In all of Traddieland, who is the heir-apparent of rightful Church Authority, who all the other Trad groups, priests and bishops should bend their will to and follow if they were smart?

Who, in all of Traddieland, has God appointed and annointed as the one we all should follow? Unfortunately for us, the reason the Crisis has continued so long, is because God has not done this yet -- such is God's will. God has chosen, as part of the punishment and for His greater glory, to "stay out of it" thus far.

If God wants the Crisis to continue, who am I to withstand God?
But the idea that the scattered sheep should have solved this on their own by now -- that scattered sheep in dozens of lifeboats *clearly* should have all followed the leader of lifeboat #37 as their new king -- that argument holds zero water and no one can expect that of any human being. Each lifeboat full of sheep is just trying to survive. All the lifeboats (chapels, priests, bishops) are essentially equal.

Essentially, there is no difference between the greatest SSPX chapel with $5 million of real estate value, hundreds of parishioners, millions in the bank, a 30-year history of operation -- and a small mission chapel with 25 parishioners, monthly Mass, inferior equipment, minimal decor, and founded less than 5 years ago. Looking at the accidents, the SSPX chapel is superior in almost every way. But fundamentally, in all the essential elements, they are equal.

In fact, there is no guarantee about who is right and wrong about anything during the Crisis. All we have is pre-Vatican II writings, manuals, and the words of the Saints -- but we all know how inadequate that has been to break up all disagreements in the world of Tradition...

Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2022, 04:41:39 PM »
Everyone can say Vigano is, at the very least a priest. We have to think of Denzinger 1379: Actual grace exists outside the Catholic Church, so even if he did not have the faith at some point he has received graces from learning the traditional Mass and God has enlightened him to some degree or another on many matters. People can say Vigano is controlled but he is FAR to the right of the SSPX on nearly every issue, especially on VII. I would field that he is probably more strict on EENS than most trad clergy, too.

This gets into personal interpretation but the way he speaks is with 100% clarity on the issues, it is like listening to a Pope at times. God willing, if he has the humility to be conditionally consecrated and calls a conclave we have a way out.

God's will be done though. This is a chastisement like no other and who knows when we will see an end to this, but like Sean, Lad and others I see this as a potential out. The clans can be united, but that unity must be in a true Pope.


Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2022, 04:43:43 PM »
The mere notion of there being "clans" within the body of the Catholic Church shows a fundamental misunderstanding of Her nature.

Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2022, 04:49:44 PM »
Everyone can say Vigano is, at the very least a priest. We have to think of Denzinger 1379: Actual grace exists outside the Catholic Church, so even if he did not have the faith at some point he has received graces from learning the traditional Mass and God has enlightened him to some degree or another on many matters. People can say Vigano is controlled but he is FAR to the right of the SSPX on nearly every issue, especially on VII. I would field that he is probably more strict on EENS than most trad clergy, too.

This gets into personal interpretation but the way he speaks is with 100% clarity on the issues, it is like listening to a Pope at times. God willing, if he has the humility to be conditionally consecrated and calls a conclave we have a way out.

God's will be done though. This is a chastisement like no other and who knows when we will see an end to this, but like Sean, Lad and others I see this as a potential out. The clans can be united, but that unity must be in a true Pope.
I don't believe that Vigano is at all controlled opposition. At worst, I believe his message may be utilized in such a way to try and divide the Church (hence my reference to Google's algorithm promoting his videos). But, only by enemies who believe that the Novus Ordo is the Catholic Church (recall the Church in eclipse prophecy). They may think promoting his message is going to cause a rift in what they believe to be the Catholic Church, when, in fact, it is playing into Providence by pushing more and more conservative Novus Ordites and tradservatives toward true Catholic orthodoxy: exactly where +Vigano appears to be finding himself these days.

In a strange way, this false conciliar church serves as a shield for true Catholicism because Satan's pawns are too blind to see that this "fringe minority" of traditional Catholics is what remains of the Catholic Church.

Re: Unite the Clans analogy doesnt work for Crisis in the Church
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2022, 05:04:52 PM »
I don't believe that Vigano is at all controlled opposition. At worst, I believe his message may be utilized in such a way to try and divide the Church (hence my reference to Google's algorithm promoting his videos). But, only by enemies who believe that the Novus Ordo is the Catholic Church (recall the Church in eclipse prophecy). They may think promoting his message is going to cause a rift in what they believe to be the Catholic Church, when, in fact, it is playing into Providence by pushing more and more conservative Novus Ordites and tradservatives toward true Catholic orthodoxy: exactly where +Vigano appears to be finding himself these days.

In a strange way, this false conciliar church serves as a shield for true Catholicism because Satan's pawns are too blind to see that this "fringe minority" of traditional Catholics is what remains of the Catholic Church.
Yeah seeing "respectable" people not willing to touch +Vigano is refreshing because if it is not him getting ignored it is him getting called a schizo or conspiracy theorist by the conciliar establishment rags and secular media. He is serving a different Master than the media, conciliar church and NGOs. He is outrageously courageous and I think will lead a lot of people in the VII sect to the truth.

I don't think people orbiting +Vigano like Taylor Marshall are that far off tbh. I would go as far as to say I think Taylor Marshall types are similarly abandoning "respectability". He even has extended the hand to sedes multiple times recently. I think the controlled elements (1p5, r&t etc) are going after sedevacantism so hard with Flanders, Bannister and Lofton types is because they smell conciliar blood in the water and have to do damage control. +Vigano "helps" them, yes, but people this deceived are not going to be convinced by +Vigano. It is more preaching to the crowd, NO apologetics ammo.

The mere notion of there being "clans" within the body of the Catholic Church shows a fundamental misunderstanding of Her nature.
I think he is playing fast and loose with a colloquial term here instead of making an ecclesiology statement, for the record :)