Author Topic: Understanding FE (Read 2567 times)

Telesphorus · « **on:** June 01, 2013, 12:30:58 PM »

Quote

A CBS News/New York Times poll in February found that 78 percent of Catholics said they were more likely to follow their own conscience than the church's teachings on difficult moral questions.
That poll highlighted several areas where most Catholics break with church teachings: 62 percent of American Catholics think same-sex marriages should be legal, 74 percent think abortion ought to be available in at least some instances and 61 percent favor the death penalty.

http://news.yahoo.com/statehouses-buck-catholic-church-gαy-marriage-134624221.html

It's so bad they draw equivalences between supporting the death penalty and supporting abortion.

How about the death penalty for abortion?

Telesphorus · « **Reply #1 on:** June 01, 2013, 12:34:01 PM »

This ought to give you an inking about where Francis and the neotrads are headed. (not necessarily in tandem, but not because neotrads won't accept Francis, no matter how liberal he is, they will)

In the future neotrads will have three positions that they claim to be very serious about.

1) opposition to abortion (mainly because it's bad for women, they will approve of all other aspects of feminism and push NFP publicly, practice contraception in their private lives) 2) opposition to "gαy marriage" (but will support tolerance for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs) 3) Prefer the traditional liturgy.

That will be the substance of their futile movement, that isn't intended to actually resist these social changes in an effective way, but is simply going to give them something on which to hang their identity.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #2 on:** June 01, 2013, 12:41:58 PM »

So long as Francis gives them cover to nominally oppose abortion, nominally oppose ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ "marriage", and have the 1962 mass, the neotrads will defend him. Just as they celebrate Hanukkah in their newspapers.

Anyone who criticizes him seriously will called "crypto-sede."

Anyone who criticizes false ecuмenism will be called "antisemitic."

Anyone who criticizes feminism will be called a "woman hater."

Their leaders are cynical manipulators who wish to reduce traditionalism to a few empty slogans and some "quaint" devotions.

They are largely fakes, the trad movement is just a vehicle for their family and social lives.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #3 on:** June 01, 2013, 12:45:22 PM »

Neotrads have far more interest in staying on the good side of believers in abortion and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ marriage than they do in staying on the good side of authentic traditionalists.

For that reason their positions should be seen as being shallow pretenses and more a matter of identity than anything else, although they may believe they are sincere, their actions show that it they are not usually serious.

Matthew · « **Reply #4 on:** June 01, 2013, 12:52:50 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote
A CBS News/New York Times poll in February found that 78 percent of Catholics said they were more likely to follow their own conscience than the church's teachings on difficult moral questions.
That poll highlighted several areas where most Catholics break with church teachings: 62 percent of American Catholics think same-sex marriages should be legal, 74 percent think abortion ought to be available in at least some instances and 61 percent favor the death penalty.

http://news.yahoo.com/statehouses-buck-catholic-church-gαy-marriage-134624221.html

It's so bad they draw equivalences between supporting the death penalty and supporting abortion.

How about the death penalty for abortion?

So the Church has officially changed her teaching on the Death Penalty?

There are few things that Trads can point to and say -- "See? The Catholic Church has changed her doctrine; she has broken with the Apostolic teaching. It is a new religion."

I know there are a couple other things (ecuмenism, religious liberty), but they are pretty rare, compared to the mess of stuff that Vatican II has done to our Faith.

Most of the damage of Vatican II was done by non-enforcement, neglect, etc. such as the sacrificial nature of the Mass and the existence of Purgatory.

The Church officially teaches Purgatory (unless you count the fact that the official requiem Mass is now in white). Usually the Liturgy DOES something that conflicts with Church teaching, without the Church officially changing that teaching.

Another example: Communion is the Body (etc.) of Christ. But everything the Liturgy does goes against this -- tabernacle off to the side, laymen handle the Hosts, people receive in the hand, standing, few people go to Confession first, etc.

Matthew · « **Reply #5 on:** June 01, 2013, 12:54:42 PM »

It also shows how "Catholic" most novus ordo Catholics are.

Not very.

Anyone who thinks Abortion should be available in some cases, or that same-sex marriages should be legal, has LOST the Faith. Their faith isn't just damaged; it's dead, Jim.

Tiffany · « **Reply #6 on:** June 01, 2013, 12:58:04 PM »

VII NO-Pro-Life types are traditionally against the death penalty so being for the death penalty is supposedly showing a break from Catholic teaching - like being for abortion is.

Tiffany · « **Reply #7 on:** June 01, 2013, 01:06:14 PM »

One thing I don't understand is why do we have so much focus on what people will bad values and false beliefs believe and do?

ETA (Including "trads")

Telesphorus · « **Reply #8 on:** June 01, 2013, 01:15:11 PM »

Quote from: Tiffany

One thing I don't understand is why do we have so much focus on what people will bad values and false beliefs believe and do?

ETA (Including "trads")

Because the Church is supposed to be Holy and conciliarism and neotraditionalism make it seem as though it's not.

These errors need to be described and explained so that people recognize them.

People need to recognize that opposition to abortion and opposition to ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ marriage can easily become an ersatz religion that is a substitute for serious Faith and practice.

And traditionalists need to stop deluding themselves about conciliarists.

poche · « **Reply #9 on:** June 04, 2013, 03:53:26 AM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Neotrads have far more interest in staying on the good side of believers in abortion and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ marriage than they do in staying on the good side of authentic traditionalists.

For that reason their positions should be seen as being shallow pretenses and more a matter of identity than anything else, although they may believe they are sincere, their actions show that it they are not usually serious.

I want to stay on the good side of God and the Blessed Virgin.

poche · « **Reply #10 on:** June 04, 2013, 03:58:13 AM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote
A CBS News/New York Times poll in February found that 78 percent of Catholics said they were more likely to follow their own conscience than the church's teachings on difficult moral questions.
That poll highlighted several areas where most Catholics break with church teachings: 62 percent of American Catholics think same-sex marriages should be legal, 74 percent think abortion ought to be available in at least some instances and 61 percent favor the death penalty.

http://news.yahoo.com/statehouses-buck-catholic-church-gαy-marriage-134624221.html

It's so bad they draw equivalences between supporting the death penalty and supporting abortion.

How about the death penalty for abortion?

What we need to do is bring our consciences in line with what the Church teaches. Then if they ask you whether you follow your conscience or the teachings of the Church? You can say "yes" to both questions.

Stephen Francis · « **Reply #11 on:** June 04, 2013, 10:28:50 AM »

The "ersatz religion" of the average Newchurch pew-sitter and the so-called neo-trad is, simply put, Protestantism.

'X percent of' people believe this or that. That percentage of people is non-Catholic. I do not say so because what they believe is a sin; I say so because they dare to oppose the teachings of Holy Church and then have the abhorrent audacity to attempt to receive Our Lord in the Sacred Host. They are, of course, eating only wafers, but assuming their Communion was valid, they would be:

1) sinning in their beliefs
2) sinning in holding those beliefs against plain Church teaching
3) sinning by not confessing their error before God and the Church
and
4) sinning by taking Communion with mortal sin on their souls, which is sacrilege, another and even more serious mortal sin.

Holy Scripture tells us about those who add sin to sin and iniquity to iniquity. These people are those people, and it should both outrage us and break our hearts.

Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon!

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.

Charlemagne · « **Reply #12 on:** June 04, 2013, 11:36:04 AM »

Quote from: poche

Quote from: Telesphorus
Neotrads have far more interest in staying on the good side of believers in abortion and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ marriage than they do in staying on the good side of authentic traditionalists.

For that reason their positions should be seen as being shallow pretenses and more a matter of identity than anything else, although they may believe they are sincere, their actions show that it they are not usually serious.

I want to stay on the good side of God and the Blessed Virgin.

Then you need to have nothing - and I mean nothing - to do with the Conciliar Church. I equate being connected to it in any way with being connected to an IV that drips poison: It kills you slowly.

Stubborn · « **Reply #13 on:** June 04, 2013, 02:16:09 PM »

Whenever I read this section about the Conciliar Catholics, I think about FE - this is only a small snip from the section in Fr. Wathen's book; Who Shall Ascend? - - see if you don't agree that it applies here in: "Understanding FE".

Conciliar Catholics

Conciliar Catholics resent the idea of having to confess sins whose grievousness they have not been aware of. What they ought to resent is that they have been misled, slyly seduced away from the True Faith by the invocation of Liberal non-principles of morality, through the abuse of authority, and the exploitation of their ignorance and trust.

It is true that these people want to be Catholics. It is true that they are not fully aware that they are "lapsed Catholics." It is further true that they do not fully understand either the Faith that they credit themselves with wanting to practice, or the false religion with which they are now taken up. In speaking to them, we find that they are much more desirous for finding themselves guiltless, than in correcting their wrong notions.

What most of them want, if they are perfectly honest, is the title of Catholic, without the burden of being such. What they want is to be saved through the Catholic Church, without being bound to fidelity to its weighty obligations. Their resentment against the principles that are set forth here arises from our challenging them to be perfectly honest with themselves, by requiring that they decide both internally and actually whether they will be Catholics in the true sense of the word. Part of their guilt is in their opposing the grace of the Holy Spirit, which they recognize at least implicitly, subconsciously, in the challenge that is being given.

What they need to do is admit to themselves they they must repent, if they mean to submit themselves unreservedly to the law of Christ. In a word, they must accept the discipline of Catholic morality. They must be prepared to admit in the confessional that they have allowed themselves to be coaxed away from that which is true, that which is Catholic, and that they indulged themselves in the laxity which their Liberalized "religion" afforded them.

Domitilla · « **Reply #14 on:** June 04, 2013, 03:09:19 PM »

Thanks for the excerpt from "Who Shall Ascend?", Stubborn. It is one of my most treasured books, in addition to "The Great Sacrilege". Currently, I am reading Fr. Wathen's book, "I Know Mine and Mine Know Me", Vol 1.

He was a great priest; the "salt of the earth", as they say. Especially post VII Catholics (FEs demographic) would greatly benefit from listening to his simple, but powerful, straight-forward sermons. They would truly hear the voice of the Good Shepherd. I listen to at least one of his sermons online every week. Deo Gratias!