Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Lover of Truth on April 10, 2014, 02:24:19 PM
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Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, "Cantate Domino," 1441, ex cathedra: "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." [1,2,5]
Look closely at this paragraph immediately above and one sees two basic parts, the first that teaches that "all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives" (in other words, dealing with those who are outside the Church, and the second, "that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church," which deals with those who are inside the Church. Notice that it is clearly referring to the second part (those inside the Church) when it uses the word "persevered" to specify what they must do. To sacrifice all and give any manner of alms etc. but then fail to persevere within the Church is to be in that category in which "nobody can be saved." Only the first part of this paragraph pertains to those who are outside the Church (and hence required to seek baptism), and the only condition it places upon them is to be "joined to the Church before the end of their lives." Since this does not in any manner address what it takes to be "joined to the Church" it in no way excludes whatever means God may elect to use in some specific case where water baptism was not obtainable but nevertheless sought.
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LoT, you demonstrated on another thread that you don't have any training in theology or logic and that you even struggle with basic English and we're to take your word for this? As with everything, you see what you want to see and believe what you want to believe.
"Persevere" just means to die in that state; you know, the gift of perseverence. You may have heard of this in second-grade catechism. You cannot be saved unless you die in the state of being in the Church.
Breathtaking.
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You've clearly adopted the strategy of continuing to throw excrement at the wall with the hopes that some of it will stick. You've made up your mind about what you want to believe and are on a never-ending quest to prove that it's true; this is referred to as begging the question.
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Did you grasp the below? It is called reading and understanding what it says with the proper distinctions. Not reading into it what you prefer to believe. EENS and BOD/B (properly understodd) do not contradict each other. If they did the Church would be unreliable and false. We would have to look for another or give up religion entirely:
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, "Cantate Domino," 1441, ex cathedra: "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." [1,2,5]
Look closely at this paragraph immediately above and one sees two basic parts, the first that teaches that "all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives" (in other words, dealing with those who are outside the Church, and the second, "that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church," which deals with those who are inside the Church. Notice that it is clearly referring to the second part (those inside the Church) when it uses the word "persevered" to specify what they must do. To sacrifice all and give any manner of alms etc. but then fail to persevere within the Church is to be in that category in which "nobody can be saved." Only the first part of this paragraph pertains to those who are outside the Church (and hence required to seek baptism), and the only condition it places upon them is to be "joined to the Church before the end of their lives." Since this does not in any manner address what it takes to be "joined to the Church" it in no way excludes whatever means God may elect to use in some specific case where water baptism was not obtainable but nevertheless sought.
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I have to admit i hadn't thought about this before.
If Cantate Domino had said "...cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they become members of the Church before the end of their lives", then it would be a closed case for water or damnation.
But it said "joined to".
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I have to admit i hadn't thought about this before.
If Cantate Domino had said "...cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they become members of the Church before the end of their lives", then it would be a closed case for water or damnation.
But it said "joined to".
Correct. "attached" could also be used. "Within" is legitimate as well. Remember there is no salvation OUTSIDE the Church.
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You've clearly adopted the strategy of continuing to throw excrement at the wall with the hopes that some of it will stick. You've made up your mind about what you want to believe and are on a never-ending quest to prove that it's true; this is referred to as begging the question.
That is a good analogy of yourself and a first step to recovery. Now how are you going to rectify it?
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It is well to remember that the teaching of the Cantate Domino is not that men must actually become members of the Church in order to attain to eternal salvation. The docuмent insists that pagans, Jєωs, heretics, and schismatics will not be saved unless, before the end of their lives they are joined (aggregate) to the one true Church. It is Catholic doctrine now, and it was Catholic doctrine when the Cantate Domino was written, that a man who is in the Church in the sense that he sincerely, even though only implicitly, desires to live within it, is in a position to be saved if he should die before he is able to attain membership in the Church. Fenton
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I have to admit i hadn't thought about this before.
If Cantate Domino had said "...cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they become members of the Church before the end of their lives", then it would be a closed case for water or damnation.
But it said "joined to".
LoT's version says that. It should say........
"The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and
teaches, that none of those who are not within the Catholic
Church, not only pagans, but Jєωs, heretics and schismatics, can
ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire
'prepared for the devil, and his angels' (Mt. 25: 41)., unless before
the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church;
also that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is such that the
Church's sacraments avail only those abiding in that Church, and
that fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of piety which play their
part in the Christian combat are in her alone productive of
eternal rewards; moreover, that no one, no matter what alms he
may have given, not even if he were to shed his blood for Christ's
sake, can be saved unless he abide in the bosom and unity of the
Catholic Church."
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Of interest:
Furthermore, no one is excluded from the everlasting possession of the Beatific Vision except for reasons of sin. In the case of an infant who has died without receiving the sacrament of baptism, that sin is not personal, but is original sin, the aversion from God which is consequent upon the offense committed by Adam himself. Obviously, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, an infant who dies in that state will not be punished by the all-just and all-merciful God for some sin which he did not personally commit. But, for such an infant, the Beatific Vision is a good to which the infant is not entitled and which he will not receive.
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It is well to remember that the teaching of the Cantate Domino is not that men must actually become members of the Church in order to attain to eternal salvation. The docuмent insists that pagans, Jєωs, heretics, and schismatics will not be saved unless, before the end of their lives they are joined (aggregate) to the one true Church. It is Catholic doctrine now, and it was Catholic doctrine when the Cantate Domino was written, that a man who is in the Church in the sense that he sincerely, even though only implicitly, desires to live within it, is in a position to be saved if he should die before he is able to attain membership in the Church. Fenton
Once again, heretic Fenton starts out affirming the dogma, and ends up denying it.
Typical modernist double speak. Fenton, one of the fathers of the Novus Ordo - I bet even Pope Francis thinks highly of him.
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In reality the only motive force for the forgiveness of man’s sins is to be found in the redemption by Jesus Christ. And the only possible way for a man to have his own sins remitted is to come into contact with Our Lord and with His salvific power in the one and only social unit which has been divinely constituted as His Mystical body. This means being within His Church as a member or at least by a sincere, even though perhaps only an implicit, desire or intention. The man who is not thus in contact with Our Lord cannot have the remission of sin. And he cannot have the effects that follow upon that remission of sin. Fenton
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All of the supernatural aids granted by God to any man tend to lead him to the eternal possession of the Beatific Vision. They likewise direct him toward those realities which, either by their very nature or by God’s own institution, are requisite for the attainment of the Beatific Vision. One of those realities is the visible Catholic Church, the religious society over which the Bishop of Rome presides as the Vicar of Christ on earth. The graces which God grants to any man outside the Church will inevitably guide him in the direction of the Church. Fenton
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If a man continues faithful to the graces given him by God he will certainly attain to eternal salvation. And he will just as certainly obtain that salvation “within” the true Church of Jesus Christ. God’s grace will lead a man in the direction of justification, according to the pattern set forth in the teaching of the Council of Trent. It will direct him to believe God’s revealed message with a certain assent based on the authority of God Himself revealing. It will lead him in the direction of salutary fear and of hope and of initial love of God and of penance. Ultimately it will lead him to a desire of baptism, even though, in some cases, that desire may be only implicit in character. And baptism is of itself the gateway to the Church, the Mystical body of Christ, within which the life of grace and salvation are to be found. In the case of a man who is already baptized, the preparation for justification includes an intention (at least implicit) of remaining within the kingdom of God to which baptism itself is the gateway. Fenton
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It is both idle and misleading to characterize the teaching of the Cantate Domino as in any way “rigorous” or exigent [demanding – J.G.]. This doctrine, which is standard Catholic teaching, is only the expression of what God has taught about the place of His Son’s Mystical Body in the economy of man’s salvation. Neither the Catholic Church itself nor the teachers of the Church have made the Church something requisite for the attainment of the Beatific Vision. When the Church makes the sort of statement that is found in the Cantate Domino, it is acting merely as the teacher of what God Himself has revealed. As the Mystical Body of Christ, the society within which Our Lord Himself is the supreme Teacher, the Church could not do otherwise. Fenton
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Disagreeable as the task may seem to some individuals, the Catholic Church has to face the facts. Basic among those facts is the truth that, apart from the redemption which is in Jesus Christ, all men would inevitably have been excluded for all eternity from the possession of the Beatific Vision, in which alone the ultimate and eternal end and happiness of man may be attained. Another fact is that the punishment for unforgiven mortal sin (sin which the guilty party has not repented) is the everlasting penalty of hell, a penalty which includes both the poena damni and poena sensus. Still another fact is that the forgiveness of sin and the infusion of the life of grace is available by the power of Christ only “within” His kingdom, His Mystical Body, which, in this period of the New Testament, is the visible Catholic Church. Such, in the final analysis, is this teaching of the first section of our citation from the Cantate Domino. Fenton
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The second sentence in the portion of the docuмent translated at the beginning of this chapter brings out the fact that acts which would otherwise be most conducive to salvation are deprived of their effect if they are performed “outside” the bond of unity of the Catholic Church. It teaches that even the reception of the sacraments cannot be “profitable unto salvation,” that is, cannot produce their effects in the life of divine grace for those who are outside of the unity of the ecclesiastical body. Furthermore it asserts that no work which of its very nature ought to be salutary can be profitable in the line of salvation unless these works are performed “within” the true Church of Jesus Christ. Fenton
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Now, the sacraments produce grace of themselves, ex opera operato, as the technical language of sacred theology says. They bring about this effect except where there is some disposition on the part of the recipient which is incompatible with the reception of the life of sanctifying grace. According to the terminology of the Cantate Domino, such an obstacle exists in a person who is “outside” the unity of the ecclesiastical body, the Mystical body of Jesus Christ. Fenton
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Once again, at this point it is absolutely imperative to remember that being “within” the Church is not exactly the same as being a member of this social unit. A man is a member of the Church when he is baptized, and when he has neither publicly renounced his baptismal profession of the true faith nor withdrawn from the fellowship of the Church, and when he has not been expelled from the company of the disciples by having received the fullness of excommunication. But a man is “within” the Church to the extent that he can be saved “within” it when he is a member or even when he sincerely, albeit perhaps only implicitly, desires to enter it. The condition requisite for profiting from the reception of the sacraments or from the performance of acts which should be salutary is being “within” the Church. Fenton
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Now, while it is possible to have a desire to be within the Church, and, indeed even to be a member of the Church, without having the love of charity for God, it is quite impossible to have charity without being within the true Church, at least by an implicit desire to dwell in it. The love of charity is, by its very nature, a sovereign affection. It is definable in terms of intention rather than of mere velleity [a slight wish – J.G.]; and it necessarily embodies an intention, rather than a mere velleity, to do what Our Lord actually wills we should do. And Our Lord wills that all men should enter and remain within the one society of His disciples, His Kingdom and His Mystical body in this world. Fenton
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An intention, incidentally, is an act of the will which is expressed by the statement that I am actually setting out to do a certain thing; a velleity, on the other hand, is an act of the will expressed in the declaration that I would like to do a thing. If I really intend to do a certain thing—to take a definite trip, for example—that intention necessarily affects all the rest of my plans and my conduct at the time. The man who really intends to take a plane to New York certainly will not make any plans or enter into any agreements incompatible with the taking of the trip he has set out to make. The mere velleity, on the other hand, has no such effectiveness. If I say I would like to take a trip to New York, this statement and the act of the will of which it is the expression have no influence whatsoever on the rest of my plans. The velleity is a mere complacency in an idea. It involves no actual preparation to accomplish its objective. Fenton
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The love of charity is essentially something in the line of intention rather than of mere velleity. The man who loves God with the true affection of charity actually intends, insofar as it is possible for him to do so, to do the will of God. It is definitely the will of God that all men should enter and live within the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. It is impossible for a man who really loves God with the affection of divine charity not to be within the Church as a member or at least to desire with a sincere and effective, even though perhaps only an implicit, intention to enter this company. Fenton
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Hence, if a man is not “within” the Church at least by a sincere desire or affection, he has not the genuine love of charity for God. In such a case there is some intention which runs counter to God’s will acting as the guiding and the motivating force of his life. If that intention persists, it remains incompatible with the love of charity and with the life of sanctifying grace, which is inseparable from the love of charity. The man with such an intention is not in a position to profit from the sacraments or from a work which, of its very nature, ought to be salutary. The life of sanctifying grace is impossible for a man who possesses an intention incompatible with the intention of charity itself. The man who is outside the Church, in the sense that he does not even have an implicit desire to enter the kingdom of God on earth, obviously acts as moved by such an intention. Fenton
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Thus the Cantate Domino brings out very clearly the following facts which were previously set forth in a more implicit manner in previous declarations of the Church.
(1) All of those outside the Church, even individuals who have committed no sin against the faith itself, are in a position in which they cannot be saved unless they in some way enter or join the Church before they die.
(2) The alternative to eternal and supernatural salvation is deprivation of the Beatific Vision. In the case of those who are guilty of mortal sin which remains unrepented, this includes both the penalty of loss and the penalty of sense in hell.
(3) The spiritual condition of one who is not “within” the Church at least by an act of implicit desire is incompatible with the reception of the life of sanctifying grace. Fenton
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Furthermore, a study of the Cantate Domino should make it apparent that the dogma of the Church’s necessity for the attainment of eternal salvation is not directed “against” any individuals or any societies. This dogma is only a statement by the Church of the truth which God has revealed and which He has confided to the Church. According to God’s own message, men in this world stand in need of genuine salvation, and, in His goodness and mercy, God has made His supernatural kingdom on earth the company in which alone this salvation is to be achieved. Fenton
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And once again:
It is well to remember that the teaching of the Cantate Domino is not that men must actually become members of the Church in order to attain to eternal salvation. The docuмent insists that pagans, Jєωs, heretics, and schismatics will not be saved unless, before the end of their lives they are joined (aggregate) to the one true Church. It is Catholic doctrine now, and it was Catholic doctrine when the Cantate Domino was written, that a man who is in the Church in the sense that he sincerely, even though only implicitly, desires to live within it, is in a position to be saved if he should die before he is able to attain membership in the Church. Fenton
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The only thing i wonder about the whole implicit wanting and desire thing for people in invincible ignorance, is, how do they know such is the case? Have they ever met someone that fit all the descriptions they give?
It is all speculation.
Cornelius wasn't in invincible ignorance. He knew things.
Something else that makes me uneasy is the idea that people living in total invincible ignorance could reach the age of reason and perfectly follow the natural law for any space of time. I just don't see how that could be possible.
It's hard enough for Catholics raised in pious families and countries to observe the natural law perfectly when reaching the age of reason, so what is one to think about savages living in the wild who barely even cover themselves? What is one to think of all those poor people in third world countries or people living in just plain ignorance, in the heresy of Protestantism etc.?
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99% of BODers do not even believe that an explicit desire for baptism or martyrdom is necessary for salvation. Moreover, 99% believe/do not condemn the teaching that someone can be saved without explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity. So what is the point of debating a detail like what Cantate Domino means by belonging to the ecclesial body?
It is like debating with an atheist about the validity of the Novus Ordo mass. Ridiculous.
If we can get a BODer to condemn the teaching that anyone can be saved even if they have no explicit desire for baptism or martyrdom or to be a Catholic, nor explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity, if you can get them to condemn that, that ALONE would be a miracle!
For every person that believes in John 3:5 as it is written, there are 99 BOders who believe that anyone can be saved even if they have no desire to be baptized, or Catholic , nor belief in Christ.
So, what is the more pressing need? To convince one John 3:5er that a catechumen or a martyr can be saved, or to convince 99 BODers that to be saved, one must at least explicitly desire to be a Catholic and believe in Christ?
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The only thing i wonder about the whole implicit wanting and desire thing for people in invincible ignorance, is, how do they know such is the case? Have they ever met someone that fit all the descriptions they give?
It is all speculation.
Cornelius wasn't in invincible ignorance. He knew things.
Something else that makes me uneasy is the idea that people living in total invincible ignorance could reach the age of reason and perfectly follow the natural law for any space of time. I just don't see how that could be possible.
It's hard enough for Catholics raised in pious families and countries to observe the natural law perfectly when reaching the age of reason, so what is one to think about savages living in the wild who barely even cover themselves? What is one to think of all those poor people in third world countries or people living in just plain ignorance, in the heresy of Protestantism etc.?
The fact that one can enter the Church by desire is doctrine. Which individuals? How? Why? When? Is speculation.
But one who has the love of Charity is within the Church and has sanctifying grace. Some non-members have perfect Charity and have sanctifying grace which can only be obtained within the Church.
Remember the Church only teaches that such is possible but warns us against speculating when it comes to individuals. Only God knows who is good willed and who has cooperated with His grace to the point of obtaining a supernatural faith and perfect charity before becoming a member of the Church?
If you avoid speculating about the who, what, where, when, why and how, but humbly submit to the "it's possible" teaching of the Church the difficulty should disappear.
Know that it is possible for the supernatural virtue of charity to be obtained by non-members before they enter the Church in reality and if they have perfect charity and supernatural faith they have sanctifying grace which is only obtainable within the Church.
Heaven and Hell do not ultimately in every circuмstance come down to water on the head but ultimately whether one dies in a state of sanctifying grace or not. And, the Church teaches infallibly that one, who has not been baptized sacramentally, through no fault of his own, can die in the state of sanctifying grace.
Is that understandable?
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The fact that one can enter the Church by desire is doctrine. Which individuals? How? Why? When? Is speculation.
But one who has the love of Charity is within the Church and has sanctifying grace. Some non-members have perfect Charity and have sanctifying grace which can only be obtained within the Church.
Remember the Church only teaches that such is possible but warns us against speculating when it comes to individuals. Only God knows who is good willed and who has cooperated with His grace to the point of obtaining a supernatural faith and perfect charity before becoming a member of the Church?
If you avoid speculating about the who, what, where, when, why and how, but humbly submit to the "it's possible" teaching of the Church the difficulty should disappear.
Know that it is possible for the supernatural virtue of charity to be obtained by non-members before they enter the Church in reality and if they have perfect charity and supernatural faith they have sanctifying grace which is only obtainable within the Church.
Heaven and Hell do not ultimately in every circuмstance come down to water on the head but ultimately whether one dies in a state of sanctifying grace or not. And, the Church teaches infallibly that one, who has not been baptized sacramentally, through no fault of his own, can die in the state of sanctifying grace.
Is that understandable?
Yes. I did mean that all the scenarios they bring up are speculation, not bod/bob.
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The fact that one can enter the Church by desire is doctrine. Which individuals? How? Why? When? Is speculation.
But one who has the love of Charity is within the Church and has sanctifying grace. Some non-members have perfect Charity and have sanctifying grace which can only be obtained within the Church.
Remember the Church only teaches that such is possible but warns us against speculating when it comes to individuals. Only God knows who is good willed and who has cooperated with His grace to the point of obtaining a supernatural faith and perfect charity before becoming a member of the Church?
If you avoid speculating about the who, what, where, when, why and how, but humbly submit to the "it's possible" teaching of the Church the difficulty should disappear.
Know that it is possible for the supernatural virtue of charity to be obtained by non-members before they enter the Church in reality and if they have perfect charity and supernatural faith they have sanctifying grace which is only obtainable within the Church.
Heaven and Hell do not ultimately in every circuмstance come down to water on the head but ultimately whether one dies in a state of sanctifying grace or not. And, the Church teaches infallibly that one, who has not been baptized sacramentally, through no fault of his own, can die in the state of sanctifying grace.
Is that understandable?
Yes. I did mean that all the scenarios they bring up are speculation, not bod/bob.
Correct. We have the basic concept. We cannot judge souls with the eyes of God.