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Author Topic: Unbaptized Infants  (Read 3254 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Unbaptized Infants
« on: March 10, 2014, 04:21:22 PM »
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  • Could you all post traditional Catholic teaching on what happens to infants who die without baptism?  Where does limbo come into play?  I am looking for teachings that specifically speak of unbaptized infants.  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Sunbeam

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    Unbaptized Infants
    « Reply #1 on: March 10, 2014, 05:42:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Could you all post traditional Catholic teaching on what happens to infants who die without baptism? Where does limbo come into play? I am looking for teachings that specifically speak of unbaptized infants.

    Try this.


    Offline The Penny Catechism

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    Unbaptized Infants
    « Reply #2 on: March 10, 2014, 08:58:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Could you all post traditional Catholic teaching on what happens to infants who die without baptism?  Where does limbo come into play?  I am looking for teachings that specifically speak of unbaptized infants.  


    1.)once you open the link, on the PDF/Adobe scroll to pg. 99/136.
    2.)go to "Q.827"
    3.)actual page is #93.

    *it will give you a place to start


    www.remnantnewspaper.com/The%20Douay%20Catechism%20of%201649. pdf


    Offline Cantarella

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    Unbaptized Infants
    « Reply #3 on: March 10, 2014, 09:27:09 PM »
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  • Unbaptized infants and little children who die are still in the state of original sin. Since no one can enter Heaven in state of original sin, these pour souls cannot be there. They are in Limbo. They do not suffer eternal fire and torment in Hell (only those beyond the age of reason, guilty of actual sins do). Their suffering consists only in the loss of the Beatific Vision.

    Infallible Magisterium

     Pope St. Zosimus:
     "No one of our children is held not guilty until he is freed through Baptism".

     Council of Lyons:
     "The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to Hell, yet to be punished with different punishments"

     Council of Florence:
     " It is likewise defined that the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into Hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds".

     Pope Innocent III:
     " The punishment of original sin is the loss of the vision of God; the punishment for actual sin is the torments of everlasting Hell".

    One of the graces of Baptism is the remission of original sin.

     Council of Florence:
     "The effect of this sacrament is the remission of every sin, original and actual"

     Council of Trent:
     "If anyone denies that by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in Baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted, or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away, but it is only brushed over or not imputed: let it be anathema"
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Unbaptized Infants
    « Reply #4 on: March 11, 2014, 04:42:17 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Unbaptized infants and little children who die are still in the state of original sin. Since no one can enter Heaven in state of original sin, these pour souls cannot be there. They are in Limbo. They do not suffer eternal fire and torment in Hell (only those beyond the age of reason, guilty of actual sins do). Their suffering consists only in the loss of the Beatific Vision.

    Infallible Magisterium

     Pope St. Zosimus:
     "No one of our children is held not guilty until he is freed through Baptism".

     Council of Lyons:
     "The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to Hell, yet to be punished with different punishments"

     Council of Florence:
     " It is likewise defined that the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into Hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds".

     Pope Innocent III:
     " The punishment of original sin is the loss of the vision of God; the punishment for actual sin is the torments of everlasting Hell".

    One of the graces of Baptism is the remission of original sin.

     Council of Florence:
     "The effect of this sacrament is the remission of every sin, original and actual"

     Council of Trent:
     "If anyone denies that by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in Baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted, or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away, but it is only brushed over or not imputed: let it be anathema"


    Where is the teaching on "Limbo"?  It was my understanding that that was never official doctrine, only a theory.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline TKGS

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    Unbaptized Infants
    « Reply #5 on: March 11, 2014, 05:22:36 AM »
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  • "Limbo" is a theological opinion that has never been condemned; nor has it ever been confirmed.

    The Church, I believe, allows people to hold the opinion because, while it is not a part of revealed doctrine, seems to be more consistent with the all-merciful God.  Limbo is a part of hell though the souls therein do not suffer the eternal fires and pains.

    The impossibility of salvation of unbaptized infants is the primary reason the Church has always condemned, in no uncertain terms, every abortion to the extent of excommunicating anyone directly involved in procuring an abortion.  The infant is killed even before she can be baptized and is consigned for eternity to hell (even if her hell is merely the non-punishing part of hell called Limbo).  While no one would excuse the person who kills an infant immediately after birth and baptism, that person's sin is not so grave as to preclude any possibility of salvation of the infant as does the abortionist.

    Curious that Cantarella received a "thumbs down" for reciting dogma of the Church.  There are some on CathInfo who would "thumbs down" the Nicene Creed.

    Offline Sunbeam

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    Unbaptized Infants
    « Reply #6 on: March 11, 2014, 10:24:14 AM »
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  • The Unbaptised and Salvation

      And now to return to the matter we began with. How are we to reconcile a good and loving God with the doctrine which teaches that unbaptized infants shall not enter the kingdom of heaven? How regard that otherwise than as unfair to them? It looks as though God did not give them a chance, and that does not seem fair. So much for the statement of the difficulty. Now for its consideration.

       If we could see God’s plans as we shall when we are sharers of His divinity in heaven, everything would be clear to us at a glance. Not only clear, but we should realize that in everything He showed the most wonderful love and wisdom. Now, however, we see faintly as through a dense medium. In a mist at sea, the skipper sometimes mistakes a ship for an iceberg.
       Realizing our limitations, therefore, let us examine the designs of God humbly and reverently. A common soldier is not qualified to pass judgment on the measures of his commander-in-chief. We are but as babes before the Almighty. He who gave us our reason and all we have has a right to our submission to his enactments. The man who does not regard God and His ways thus does not rightly know his place. The man who does not trust to God’s love and wisdom has not the first qualification for future association with Him.
       That is why God Himself says unless you enter the kingdom of heaven as little children you shall not enter. The child trusts and loves its parents. We must trust and love God and be convinced that what He has determined on is right and just and best. There is no faith without that.

       The objection is made that God is not fair in excluding unbaptized infants from heaven because He gives them no chance. Would you say God was unfair because He made you a man instead of an angel? What is the destiny of the unbaptized infant? It is the very next thing to that of the angels in heaven.
       The angels and saints share the life of God. The unbaptized infants share all of God’s enjoyments except heaven. They will have for all eternity everything that Adam and Eve would have had in case God had not elevated the nature of our first parents to participation with His own. All the joy and bliss that human nature is capable of by itself will be the inheritance of the unbaptized infants.

       Original sin deprived Adam and Eve of their supernatural or heavenly destiny. The Redemption restored that. Baptism applies the Redemption to the individual, destroys original sin, and restores to man his heavenly title, making him an adopted child of God.
       As the unbaptized infants do not receive back their inheritance lost by original sin, they suffer that loss. That is the pain of loss which we call the consequence of original sin.
       When we say that this unbaptized infant endures a penalty or is punished, we mean it in that sense. No pain is inflicted. The word pain is used to denote the deprivation of an enjoyment that would have been its share if it had received back its inheritance to heaven. But next to heaven, the unbaptized infants have everything that God can bestow on His creatures.

       Now suppose Adam and Eve had not been raised to a higher destiny but, being created perfect man and woman, were placed in the Garden of Paradise to live there, with everything in the world they could desire. Would you say that God was unfair for giving them that? Yet like unto that is the career of the unbaptized infants.
       They have everything except heaven. Their life forever will be in a Paradise where they will have all the natural enjoyments our first parents would have had in the Garden of Paradise. There are no joys of earth now comparable to those of that Paradise. And similar to that is the abode of the unbaptized infants. That is their limbo, or dwelling place, a most perfect Paradise, everything short of heaven itself.
       Now we know some people on earth who like it so much that with all its drawbacks they say this life is their heaven. Do they consider God unfair for giving them this heaven on earth? Of course they change their mind when trials come, as come they do to all. Who ever saw an old person who considered earth heaven and would care to live life over again? But in youth, with beauty and love and luxury, this world seems very heavenly. And at that period some people barter heaven for the joys of earth.
       Well now, suppose you take the happiest career ever lived on earth, a career full of bliss and health and love and good fortune. If you saw a person who had such a career, would he not say: “Oh, how good God is to me !” That, only much more and better, is the career of the unbaptized infants. They have everything this world at its best can give, and more.

       Of course, you may object that heaven is better. So an angel may object that he is not an archangel. A saint may object that he is not a seraph. Every woman may object because she is not the Blessed Virgin. Eight of the nine choirs of angels may object that they are not on top. And so on.
       That is not the point. The point is that an angel should be very grateful for being an angel and thank God for His goodness. A man should thank God that he can be a saint, even though man is a little lower than the angels. And next to the blessed in heaven are the unbaptized infants.
       Now is God unfair to the unbaptized infants to give them that wonderful blessedness forever? If you say so, you must say that He is unfair to the monkey for not giving him a chance to become a man; unfair to a frog for not making it a bird; unfair to the tree for not making it a deer; unfair to the stone for not making it a bush.
       God gives everything to the unbaptized infant that human nature of itself can crave or receive. To the baptized He adds of His own accord something human nature is not entitled to, participation with His own divinity. This adoption is a free gift of God, and in bestowing it on some, He does no injustice to others.
       In order that you may know that this is the teaching of the Church, I quote from St. Thomas Aquinas, the greatest theologian of Christianity: “The souls of children who die without baptism are not deprived of a natural happiness such as according to its nature is due; but they do lack that supernatural happiness which we have by virtue of faith. The souls of infants, ignorant of the fact that they are deprived of so great a good, feel no pain because of this privation, and possess in peace all that is proper to their nature” (Quaest. De Malo, V-a. 3).

       God is good, essentially good. If we are good, as we should be, we are sure to know all things some day. In our desire to search the ways of the Almighty, we should not forget that He is our Judge as well as Creator. His laws are of more concern to us than His unsearchable designs. Some people forget to be good, and worry themselves about God’s goodness. God is able to take care of Himself. In the right time He will justify His ways.
       Meanwhile let our first concern be to live as He ordains. For we are adults. God will not treat us as He has the unbaptized infants. On them He conferred immeasurable natural happiness without their doing anything to merit it. It was a free gift on His part. But to those who have attained to the use of reason, His dispensation is different.
       To all who have reached the years of discretion, He says: “All you who receive me, I give the power to become my children. If you reject me, I will cast you off forever. If you receive me, you must do so not merely by word, but by deed. You must keep my commandments.” The commandments are God’s will expressed to His human creatures. He leaves them free because He made them so. Their salvation depends on their own efforts, aided by His grace. They must do their part.

       This brings us to the question of adult salvation. God wishes the salvation of all. Since this is so, He gives to every man the means of salvation. Baptism is the general means appointed by God for admission into His kingdom. There is sacramental baptism and the baptism of desire.
       The Church teaches that a man, be he a pagan or a savage, if he follow the dictates of conscience and does good and avoids evil, will receive from God an internal inspiration to do what is necessary in order to be saved. A savage in the heart of Africa, if he follow the light of the natural law, will receive from God the grace of salvation.
       In just what way this is done in each individual case we do not know. But it is Catholic doctrine that no one is lost except by his own fault. God gives to every man the light necessary to direct him to eternal life, and unless man himself rejects that light and its guidance, he will be saved.
       To substantiate this, I give the pronouncement made to the whole world by the saintly Pontiff, Pius IX, in his allocution dated August 10, 1863: “You know, my most dear children and venerable brothers, that those who, being individually ignorant of our holy religion, observe the natural law and precepts that God has engraven on the heart of every man, and who are disposed to obey God and live virtuously and righteously, can by the aid of divine light and grace obtain eternal life; since God, who searches the heart, who sees clearly and knows the sentiments, the thoughts, and the dispositions of all, cannot in His supreme mercy and goodness by any means permit that even one soul should be eternally punished that has not separated itself from Him by voluntary mortal sin.

       That is Catholic teaching, that is Catholic faith. It tells us that God gives every man not only a chance, but a good chance. It shows us that God is just and good. He is also infinite, and, in consequence, mysterious to us finite beings.
       Let us not try to understand all His ways. We shall not succeed. If He wanted us to know more, He would have declared it. But He does not. Not yet. Let us who are Catholics, who belong visibly to the living Church of God, be grateful to Him.
       The Church is the direct channel of His grace. It is the sure means of salvation. Others grope in uncertainty. We have God’s own guidance. We have His sacraments to nourish us, His priests to minister unto us, His voice to direct our every step aright. We do not have to pray: “Lead, kindly Light, amid the encircling gloom,” as did the great Newman in search for the truth. The truth is the inheritance of Catholics and the truth will lead us securely to our eternal inheritance.
       But we must live the truth. It is not enough to admit it or proclaim it. The majesty of God is infinite. His laws are sacred. He will not allow His authority to be despised. No matter how good He is, He wants our obedience and reverence. Our government at Washington is good, it exists for the welfare of the people, but it will not tolerate the violation of its laws. It must be respected. Almighty God, the Ruler of mankind, although infinitely good, will not tolerate trifling with His mandates.
       He gives His light and grace to every man. To every human being, He gives all that is necessary to be happy for all eternity. It is each one’s duty to cooperate with the grace received and to leave others to God and His justice and mercy. It will little benefit us to be solicitous on God's account if we are neglectful of our own. He will not ask us to stand judgment on His ways, but upon ours.


    -------------------------------------------------

    Ref: Martin J. Scott, SJ. The Hand of God : A Theology for the People.
    (New York, P. J. Kenedy & Sons, 1918)
    Imprimatur: Josephus Mooney, Administrator, Neo-Eboraci, die 2, Octobris 1918.
    Chapter XIV. "The Unbaptised and Salvation." pp.112-130.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Unbaptized Infants
    « Reply #7 on: March 11, 2014, 04:41:51 PM »
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  • Here I found an infallible quote that may help to understand where the belief on "Limbo"come from, which really is just the name of the place of Hell for those who die with original sin only and that is separated from the tormenting fires:

    Pope Zosimus (confirming Canon 2 of Council of Carthage):

    It has been decided that, likewise, if anyone say that it might be understood that in the kingdom of Heaven, there will be some middle place or some place anyhere infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven, which is life eternal, let him be anathema. For the Lord says:"unless a man is born again of water and of the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter the kingdom of God"


    It is of most importance therefore that the babies are baptized as soon as posibble. Baptized babies go straight to Heaven and are part of the elect  :baby:.

    Council of Florence:

    "Regarding children, indeed, because of the danger of death, which can often take place, since no other remedy can help other than the sacrament of Baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil and adopted among the children of God, the Holy Roman Church, warns that holy Baptism ought not to be deferred, but it should be conferred as soon as can be done conveniently".
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Sunbeam

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    Unbaptized Infants
    « Reply #8 on: March 12, 2014, 07:58:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Baptized babies go straight to Heaven ...

    Untrue!

    Offline crossbro

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    « Reply #9 on: March 12, 2014, 11:33:15 AM »
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  • I think the best answer I saw on another thread was that limbo means border. Not the border of heaven, but the border of hell.

    I think the Dimond brothers posted something stating it was a part of hell where there is no fire. The Church does hold that there are degrees of hell, so that kind of made sense.

    If there is no limbo, then I would have to say they go to hell, based on the teachings of Jesus in the Gospel.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Unbaptized Infants
    « Reply #10 on: March 12, 2014, 12:00:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sunbeam
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Baptized babies go straight to Heaven ...

    Untrue!


    Please elaborate and provide evidence for such refutal.

    Where do baptized infants go then when they die, according to Sunbeam?
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Unbaptized Infants
    « Reply #11 on: March 12, 2014, 12:10:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    "Limbo" is a theological opinion that has never been condemned; nor has it ever been confirmed.

    The Church, I believe, allows people to hold the opinion because, while it is not a part of revealed doctrine, seems to be more consistent with the all-merciful God.  Limbo is a part of hell though the souls therein do not suffer the eternal fires and pains.

    The impossibility of salvation of unbaptized infants is the primary reason the Church has always condemned, in no uncertain terms, every abortion to the extent of excommunicating anyone directly involved in procuring an abortion.  The infant is killed even before she can be baptized and is consigned for eternity to hell (even if her hell is merely the non-punishing part of hell called Limbo).  While no one would excuse the person who kills an infant immediately after birth and baptism, that person's sin is not so grave as to preclude any possibility of salvation of the infant as does the abortionist.

    Curious that Cantarella received a "thumbs down" for reciting dogma of the Church.  There are some on CathInfo who would "thumbs down" the Nicene Creed.


    I too was rather shocked she received a "thumbs down" for once I agree with her post completely, and will give her a"thumb up" on this one.

    Thanks TKGS!
    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline crossbro

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    Unbaptized Infants
    « Reply #12 on: March 12, 2014, 12:38:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Sunbeam
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Baptized babies go straight to Heaven ...

    Untrue!


    Please elaborate and provide evidence for such refutal.

    Where do baptized infants go then when they die, according to Sunbeam?


    According to Jesus, they go to hell.

    Jesus stated that unless one is reborn (baptism) then that is where someone goes.

    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #13 on: March 12, 2014, 12:58:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: crossbro
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Sunbeam
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Baptized babies go straight to Heaven ...

    Untrue!


    Please elaborate and provide evidence for such refutal.

    Where do baptized infants go then when they die, according to Sunbeam?


    According to Jesus, they go to hell.

    Jesus stated that unless one is reborn (baptism) then that is where someone goes.


    Crossbro, please notice I was refering to already baptized babies that die.  They go to Heaven. Perhaps Sunbeam also misread my statement.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Sunbeam

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    « Reply #14 on: March 12, 2014, 01:31:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Sunbeam
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Baptized babies go straight to Heaven ...

    Untrue!

    Please elaborate and provide evidence for such refutal.

    Where do baptized infants go then when they die, according to Sunbeam?

    But you are now qualifying your original statement.
    My post was a warning to take more care over what you write.