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Author Topic: Una cuм mortal sin?  (Read 2507 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Una cuм mortal sin?
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2022, 02:56:13 PM »
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  • Interestingly enough, the Church recognizes the infallible Magisterium of the Pontiff speaking ex cathedra actually came from Saint Robert Bellarmine...   

    Providentissimus Deus, Acts of Pius XI, AAS 23 (1931) 433-438
    Saint Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal of the Roman Church, of the Society of Jesus, is Declared Doctor of the Universal Church
    But it is an outstanding achievement of St Robert, that the rights and privileges divinely bestowed upon the Supreme Pontiff, and those also which were not yet recognized by all the children of the Church at that time, such as the infallible Magisterium of the Pontiff speaking ex cathedra, he both invincibly proved and most learnedly defended against his adversaries.


    Saint Robert Bellarmine is recognized by the Church as the first and foremost authority on the papacy...

    Providentissimus Deus, Acts of Pius XI, AAS 23 (1931) 433-438
    Saint Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal of the Roman Church, of the Society of Jesus, is Declared Doctor of the Universal Church
    Moreover he appeared even up to our times as a defender of the Roman Pontiff of such authority that the Fathers of the [1870] Vatican Council employed his writings and opinions to the greatest possible extent.
    I'm still out of upthumbs but this is great info, thanks for posting it Sgt Rock! It clears up for me the meaning of his 1st point in your previous post so that it is not at odds with V1, though for me V1 is much clearer.

    "...How, I ask, will a heretical Pope confirm the brethren in faith and always preach the true faith? Certainly God can wrench the confession of the true faith out of the heart of a heretic just as he placed the words in the mouth of Balaam’s ass..."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Sgt Rock USMC

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    Re: Una cuм mortal sin?
    « Reply #31 on: December 02, 2022, 03:14:29 PM »
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  • I'm still out of upthumbs but this is great info, thanks for posting it Sgt Rock! 

    You're very welcome...  

    Unfortunately, I have not been able to reciprocate the ole thumbs up, but I believe that's because of my low post count.  

    I've always appreciated our back and forths...


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Una cuм mortal sin?
    « Reply #32 on: December 03, 2022, 05:27:44 AM »
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  • Quote
    I've always appreciated our back and forths...

    Same here, very much!

    The OP demonstrates something important imo, namely, the wrong mindset which has set in among many trads. That may be putting it too mildly I don't know, but it is a mindset that is altogether misguided. It's as if the Catholic mindset becomes over powered by an abhorrence of the conciliar popes due to their public sins of heresy. 

    While the abhorrence is to the sins themselves is Catholic, whatever one's opinion of his status is, the utter disdain of mentioning his name in the canon is not. It really isn't. To question that una cuм might be sinful, is definitely at least misguided. 

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Una cuм mortal sin?
    « Reply #33 on: December 03, 2022, 10:12:21 AM »
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  • Under the assumption of maintaining the unitive dignity of the office, one could make an excuse for mentioning the occupant.  
    That is why I think the Thesis may retain Catholic unity.  In reality the holding pattern suggests opposition to error. Error so grave as to establish an alter that exist in opposition to my local parish rights. 

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Una cuм mortal sin?
    « Reply #34 on: December 03, 2022, 10:34:04 AM »
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  • I thought I read somewhere recently that Catholics can't pray publicly for heretics, the notorious, etc.  Obviously, we want and pray for the conversion of everyone, privately, but doing so in the liturgy was repulsive.  Thoughts on that?  Maybe I just read it incorrectly and quickly.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Una cuм mortal sin?
    « Reply #35 on: December 03, 2022, 11:57:10 AM »
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  • Heresy is a sin, a heretic is a sinner. No one has the right to omit the name of the pope heretic or holy, everyone is obligated to include the name of the pope, heretic or holy. The Church even gives us a very good and clear reason for this.

    No.  You've constantly pushed this nonsese that heresy is MERELY a sin.  Pope Pius XII clearly taught otherwise, in an Encyclical, that heresy (along with schism) is unlike other sins in that it excludes from membership in the Church.  You've been corrected on this point at least a dozen times but remain pertinacious in your error.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Una cuм mortal sin?
    « Reply #36 on: December 03, 2022, 12:44:16 PM »
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  • Whether and to what extent the V2 papal claimants are heretics is the wrong question, and it's a distraction from the core issue.

    What matters is this and only this:  Is the Conciliar Church the Catholic Church?

    If Vatican II and the NOM had never happened, and we just had Bergoglio making heretical statements to Scalfari or on his plane pressers, it wouldn't matter.  We'd rightly respond, as lay Catholics, that he's not our problem and that the Cardinals and bishops should deal with him.  Cardinal Cushing was a blatant manifest heretic before Vatican II, and yet Catholics just carried on with their normal lives, going to Mass.  At many points in Church history, probabaly 90% of Catholics didn't even know who the pope was.

    We as Catholics recognize that the Conciliar Church lacks the notes of the One True Church founded by Christ.

    As to how this happened, those are details ... whether it's because the See is vacant on account of heresy, whether it's partly vacant (sedeprivationism / sedeimpoundism), whether the V2 "popes" are being blackmailed and not acting freely, and that would render their acts null and void, whether Montini and others were drugged, blackmailed (for sodomy or pedophilia), or whether they were replaced by doubles (while the real Pope was kept in a dungeon), or ... my theory ... that Cardinal Siri was the true Pope (Gregory XVII) through his death in 1989, and then Ratzinger/Bergoglio after that were not valid bishops and could not exercise papal teaching authority (only bishops are part of the Ecclesia Docens).  We can argue about whether Bellarmine was right or Cajetan or John of St. Thomas.  While we could make our case, the Church has not defined the matter, so Catholics are free to believe any position.

    People have accused me of being a dogamtic SV.  I'm nothing of the sort.  I'm a dogmatic indefectibilist.  To attribute Vatican II and the NOM to the Holy Catholic Church is to undermine the Church's indefectibility ... unless you're engaged in the types of gymnastics where you try to assert that they're reconcilable with Tradition and most of the NOM aberrations are simply "abuses".

    As for putting someone's name into the Canon, I could see someone who's a sedeprivationist making a case for doing so on the basis of his being in material possession of the office.  St. Vincent Ferrer had an Antipope's name in the Canon for many years.  Were his Masses sacrilegious, schismatic, or non-Catholic simply because he was in material error regarding the identity of the pope?  Of course not.  Would it have been a sin or schismatic act for the faithful (even those who were right about which was the true pope) to assist at one of St. Vincent's Masses?  Of course not.  You're making a mistake here in equating putting Francis into the Canon with a priest who would put Patriarc Kirill into the Canon as his bishop.  Whereas the former is based on theological opinion, the latter constitutes formal adherence to schism.

    Father Chazal undoubtedly puts Francis into the Canon, but he clearly does not adhere to the Conciliar sect, and it's no act of schism.  He's basing this on his theological opinion (partly rooted in Cajetan and, mostly, John of St. Thomas) that Francis remains a visible sign of unity for Catholics based on his possession of the office (even though he lacks authority).  Whether you agree with that or not, that opinion is tenable for a Catholic, i.e. is not heretical or schismatic.

    Here even the radical SV Dimond Brothers did some excellent research regarding this issue, concluding that it's permissible for the faithful to assist at such Masses, showing where St. Pius V did not forbid it, re-admitting Anglican schismatics on the one condition that they not attend Canmer's Prot Rite (but permitting them to attend Masses of compromiser priests).

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Una cuм mortal sin?
    « Reply #37 on: December 03, 2022, 02:06:29 PM »
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  • No.  You've constantly pushed this nonsese that heresy is MERELY a sin.  Pope Pius XII clearly taught otherwise, in an Encyclical, that heresy (along with schism) is unlike other sins in that it excludes from membership in the Church.  You've been corrected on this point at least a dozen times but remain pertinacious in your error.
    A Catholic who has fallen into the sin of heresy can (and is urged by the Church) to do what *only* members of the Church are permitted to do, namely, get to confession (and amend their lives). 

    Either way, the Church (Ex Quo) clearly teaches without any disclaimers or qualifications whatsoever, that to omit the name of the pope in the canon of the Mass is never permitted.

    Those who've made themselves the authority over the Mass and are so presumptuous as to purposely omit his name, cause disunity and commit an act of schism - that's per Ex Quo, not me. Even you should see plainly that it causes disunity. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Una cuм mortal sin?
    « Reply #38 on: December 07, 2022, 11:39:31 AM »
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  • Should it be presumed that all priests of the sspx mention the name of the current pope in the Canon?
    Is this the sxpx official public position? And where can one see the official position?

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Una cuм mortal sin?
    « Reply #39 on: December 07, 2022, 12:10:17 PM »
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  • Father Chazal undoubtedly puts Francis into the Canon, but he clearly does not adhere to the Conciliar sect, and it's no act of schism.  He's basing this on his theological opinion (partly rooted in Cajetan and, mostly, John of St. Thomas) that Francis remains a visible sign of unity for Catholics based on his possession of the office (even though he lacks authority).  Whether you agree with that or not, that opinion is tenable for a Catholic, i.e. is not heretical or schismatic.



    Lad,


    I generally like Fr. Chazal's view and I think I agree with it. I purchased his book from Matthew and started it but I've misplaced it and it hasn't reappeared unfortunately.

    I don't want to sidetrack this thread so I'll go back and read your "R & R - why don't you get behind Father Chazal's sede-impoundism" and take this quote and the discussion there.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Shrewd Operator

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    Re: Una cuм mortal sin?
    « Reply #40 on: December 07, 2022, 07:49:08 PM »
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  • Is it always permissible for the priest to say "Una cuм Petrus" as is done during an interregnum. Can it be used as a wild card by a priest who can't remember the regal name, or doubts the identity, or status of the papal claimants?


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Una cuм mortal sin?
    « Reply #41 on: December 07, 2022, 09:55:44 PM »
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  • Should it be presumed that all priests of the sspx mention the name of the current pope in the Canon?
    Is this the sxpx official public position? And where can one see the official position?
    SSPX is officially sedeplenist. So, of course they pray for the pope in the Mass. 
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Una cuм mortal sin?
    « Reply #42 on: December 07, 2022, 10:17:35 PM »
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  • People have accused me of being a dogamtic SV.  I'm nothing of the sort.  I'm a dogmatic indefectibilist.  To attribute Vatican II and the NOM to the Holy Catholic Church is to undermine the Church's indefectibility ... unless you're engaged in the types of gymnastics where you try to assert that they're reconcilable with Tradition and most of the NOM aberrations are simply "abuses".
    Ultimately, I stand with you in that position. It's honestly what drew me from FE when I started taking the sede position seriously, as the indefectibility of the Church is the key issue on identifying the V2 sect as false; the question of the vacant See is secondary. And while I don't hold to either sedeimpoundism or sedeprivationism anymore, I believe the See is vacant, I also cannot sit here and say that people are heretics for adhering to liturgies that name Bergoglio as Pope are heretics or in mortal sin.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Una cuм mortal sin?
    « Reply #43 on: December 08, 2022, 06:53:18 AM »
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  • Ultimately, I stand with you in that position. It's honestly what drew me from FE when I started taking the sede position seriously, as the indefectibility of the Church is the key issue on identifying the V2 sect as false; the question of the vacant See is secondary. And while I don't hold to either sedeimpoundism or sedeprivationism anymore, I believe the See is vacant, I also cannot sit here and say that people are heretics for adhering to liturgies that name Bergoglio as Pope are heretics or in mortal sin.
    I am sitting where you are DL (although I've never held sedeimpoundism nor sedeprivationism... I have always held sedevacantism).  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)