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Author Topic: Tyconius on the Apocalypse  (Read 3001 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Tyconius on the Apocalypse
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2023, 06:25:33 AM »
    DR, while understanding Tyconius himself is a pre-requisite, it is good to remember that he was a Donatist heretic. Many of his insights are helpful in understanding our current situation. But I think it is best to focus on Augustine's correction of Tyconius. He uses some of the categories described by Tyconius but reformulates them in a non-heretical way. Augustine's City of God is the result of that reformulation.

    Augustine teaches that the institutional Church, as long as we are on the earthly pilgrimage, will always include a mixture of saints and sinners (except for heretics, apostates and schismatics, who voluntarily separate themselves from the true Church). Only at the end of Salvation History will the wheat and the tares be separated by supernatural events. So the Institutional Church will include both wheat and tares until the Second Coming.

    But, again, Augustine emphasizes that those who have "defected from the Faith" are different from other types of sinners. The heretics/apostates/schismatics are "outside the Church" automatically, while normal sinners remain "inside the Church" and are to be treated as such. Tyconius, and the other Donatists, took a harder line against these normal sinners, refusing to be in communion with people who committed certain past sins even after repentance.

Angelus,

I don't see how the difference with the Donatists referred to in the last paragraph affects the theological position one takes with regard to eschatology. Sure, the Donatists might exclude more people from the true Church, but the theological distinction true Church/false Church remains unaffected  for purposes of eschatology. The Donatists would simply be adding more tares to the field, but the tare/wheat distinction still holds without any theological or conceptual distinction for the implicated eschatologies that I can see. 


Thanks for the article, I've started reading it. 

DR

Offline Angelus

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Re: Tyconius on the Apocalypse
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2023, 06:46:50 PM »
Angelus,

I don't see how the difference with the Donatists referred to in the last paragraph affects the theological position one takes with regard to eschatology. Sure, the Donatists might exclude more people from the true Church, but the theological distinction true Church/false Church remains unaffected  for purposes of eschatology. The Donatists would simply be adding more tares to the field, but the tare/wheat distinction still holds without any theological or conceptual distinction for the implicated eschatologies that I can see.


Thanks for the article, I've started reading it.

DR


The Donatists are heretics because they incorrectly drew the line that separates those inside the Church and those outside the Church.

The Donatists basically taught that the traditores committed a sin so heinous that could never be forgiven, and those traditores who were clergy had lost their Holy Orders and that those Orders could never be revived, which caused the recipients of the Sacraments from said clergy to be recipients if invalid Sacraments (in the eyes of the Donatists).

Augustine and the Church Magisterium taught that the traditores may have committed a grave sin, but their souls could be revived by the Sacrament of Penance. And, importantly, that the Sacraments work ex opere operato, so even a sinful priest could distribute the Sacraments. Also, those Sacraments marking the soul with an indelible character cannot be undone by committing a sin.

According to Augustine and the Magisterium, the only sins that put one "outside the Church" are the sins of "defection from the Faith" (i.e., heresy, apostasy, and schism). And even those sins can be repented for, allowing the person to re-enter the Church. The Donatists heretically expanded that list of sins that put a person "outside the Church." And this expansion had enormous consequences in justifying their schism from the True Church.