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Author Topic: Two Views on the New Mass: Indult/Fr. Ripperger's and R&R/Fr. Wathen's.  (Read 5796 times)

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Offline Giovanni Berto

Re: Two Views on the New Mass: Indult/Fr. Ripperger's and R&R/Fr. Wathen's.
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2024, 01:40:05 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2024, 01:32:28 PM
In your description, any sin is on the new-sspx leadership.  But, it would become sinful for you, if you continued to go to this doubtful priest, knowing he was not conditionally re-ordained.

Sure, but with the SSPX you never know who the celebrant is until he walks in dressed for mass. Such a messy group.:facepalm:
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Offline 2Vermont

Re: Two Views on the New Mass: Indult/Fr. Ripperger's and R&R/Fr. Wathen's.
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2024, 01:51:30 PM »
Quote from: RobertS on August 22, 2024, 10:33:26 AM
There are two views of the New Mass (among non-sedes/excluding that for now) among non-sede Traditional Catholics: (1) one, that of Fr. Ripperger, that the TLM is objectively superior to the NOM, and merits more graces from God. In a similar way, 15 decades of the Rosary is more meritorious than 5 decades and thus objectively superior to it, though both merit grace. (2) two, the extreme view of Fr. Wathen, namely that the New Mass is supposedly "idolatry", "heresy", "blasphemy", always a "sacrilege", and a "mortal sin" etc. Even Bp. Williamson recently rejected the Wathenite for the Rippergerite view, though Bp. Williamson is not exactly Indult. And most importantly, (1) holds the NOM is only deficient, which is compatible with the Church Hierarchy's Indefectibility, whereas (2) holds the NOM to be positively DEFECTIVE, which word-for-word contradicts the Church's Indefectibility.

Which view do you hold and why? I hold 2, and some of the reasons why are explained by Fr. Ripperger in his original "Merit of a Mass" article and in the below article on Unam Sanctam Catholicam that reviews it:
The Rosary is a sacramental, not a sacrament.    Apples and Oranges.  
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Offline Hewkonian

Re: Two Views on the New Mass: Indult/Fr. Ripperger's and R&R/Fr. Wathen's.
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2024, 02:56:45 PM »
The Novus Ordo is poisoned, it is dubious and doubtful as are there priests and Catholics must reject it. I hold the same position as Archbishop Lefebvre:
    -“This Mass is poisoned, it is bad and it leads to the loss of faith little by little. We are clearly obliged to reject it.” (The Mass of All Times, p. 353)


  -“And we have the precise conviction that this new rite of Mass expresses a new faith, a faith which is not ours, a faith which is not the Catholic Faith. This New Mass is a symbol, is an expression, is an image of a new faith, of a Modernist faith… Now it is evident that the new rite, if I may say so, supposes another conception of the Catholic religion - another religion.” (Sermon, June 29, 1976)


    -“…if they are going to the New Mass—slowly, slowly they change their mind and become, slowly, slowly Protestant. It is very dangerous to go to the New Mass regularly, each week, because the New Mass is not some accidental change, but it is a whole orientation, a new definition of the Mass. It has not the same definition as the True Mass.” (Interview, St. Michael’s Mission, Atlanta, April 27, 1986)

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Offline songbird

Re: Two Views on the New Mass: Indult/Fr. Ripperger's and R&R/Fr. Wathen's.
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2024, 02:59:40 PM »
Fr. Faber I believe stated that the rosary is a sacramental therefore in mystery it does have Precious Blood.
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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Two Views on the New Mass: Indult/Fr. Ripperger's and R&R/Fr. Wathen's.
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2024, 03:09:17 PM »
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Fr. Ripperger concludes that the Traditional Rite of Mass is objectively more meritorious.  
This is obviously true, because an illicit/sinful mass is not meritorious at all.  And the novus ordo is illicit/sinful due to Quo Primum.

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Before anyone panics, let me add that Fr. Ripperger basis his conclusion upon a clear distinction between the intrinsic and extrinsic value of a Mass. The intrinsic value a Mass refers to the value in the Mass as a work of God, particularly in the ex opere operato graces present in the Eucharistic sacrifice. 
Only the TLM, said by a 100% non-doubtful priest, said in accordance with Quo Primum (i.e. not in accordance with V2/new-rome) has any intrinsic value.

All novus ordo "masses" said by "V2 priests" are suspect and doubtful.  And all indult "masses" said by "V2 priests" are also doubtful.  These have no intrinsic value because a doubtful mass/sacrament must be avoided under pain of sin, per canon law. 

God can provide graces to those who attend such doubtful services, but such cannot be condoned in a general way.


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The intrinsic value of any valid Mass is therefore infinite, since it is Christ's own infinitely valuable sacrifice to the Father. 
This applies to the True Mass only.

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Intrinsically, then, the New Rite of Mass is just as efficacious as the traditional rite or as any other valid rite, inasmuch as the infinite value of the Eucharistic sacrifice is present in both forms.
This is just horrible, misguided theology.  Validity is not the only "litmus test" of grace.  One must also consider the licitness and morality of an act.  The new mass, even if valid, and even if said in the most "reverent way possible" is 100% illicit (and therefore sinful) and this makes it immoral.  The only graces which flow from the new mass, are by way of God's mercy, to those who still haven't grasped/accepted that the V2/new mass machine is heretical and anti-catholic.


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Taken together, Fr. Ripperger concludes that the rite of the Traditional Mass is structured in such a way as to enable a greater disposition of prayerfulness and piety, 
Uhh...because it is of Divine origin, directly from Christ.  God created the True Mass and that's why its "structure" is perfect.


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which in turn means the graces we reap from the traditional Mass can be objectively greater than those available in the Novus Ordo—without denying the validity of the New Mass, nor calling into question that "Christ is there" in the Eucharist of the Novus Ordo. One need not question the validity of the Novus Ordo to understand that, objectively, the framework of the traditional Mass opens up the possibility of a greater merit when considered extrinsically.
Christ can also be present at a Black Satanic Mass, but that doesn't mean that His Presence is pleasing to God the Father, nor that it provides grace, nor that we deny the validity of (certain) Satanic Masses.

Just because a mass is valid, doesn't mean it's pleasing to God.  Validity is only 1 requirement.  Fr Ripperberger's analysis of the new mass is short-sighted, myopic, and flawed.
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