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Author Topic: Two brief refutations of the error of 61 year sedeprivationism.  (Read 4196 times)

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Offline Nishant Xavier

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  • Can "material" Popes appoint Cardinals to positions of authority with the right to elect, or appoint Bishops to office with the right to rule, and power to govern? cuм Ex says, No, not at all.

    First Refutation: 61 year SPism seems to contradict cuм Ex Apostolatus explicitly - "From the sede site, daily Catholic, "(v) each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone;" http://www.dailycatholic.org/cuмexapo.htm

    Note and Notice: "no stability whatsoever" and "nor any right to anyone". What follows? That those appointed by non-popes hold no offices or rights.

    Second Refutation: Sedevacantist bishops do not constitute the Teaching Church at all, nor exercise the Ordinary and Universal Teaching Authority (Magisterium) of the Church. They themselves know this. Where then is the Teaching Church today? Clearly (1) only in Bishops appointed to diocesan office by Pope Francis and his predecessors. But (2) only a true Pope can appoint Bishops to dioceses. And therefore it necessarily follows from (1) and (2) that (3) Pope Francis and his 5 predecessors in the Throne of St. Peter have been True Popes in every way, including by universal jurisdiction and "formal" authority.

    This refutation of SVISM and spism is most certain, so let everyone who wishes to make progress in spiritual life take care to steer well clear of these erroneous opinions, for many of them are proximate to heresy, and will regrettably have ruinous effects in those who embrace them. We see the Church's Teaching on the Teaching Church in the Catechism Pope St. Pius X, 9th article. 61 year Spism totally contradicts it. https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/catechism-of-st-pius-x-1286

    Quote from: Pope St. Pius X
    Quote
    9 Q. State distinctly what is necessary to be a member of the Church?
    A. To be a member of the Church it is necessary to be baptised, to believe and profess the teaching of Jesus Christ, to participate in the same Sacraments, and to acknowledge the Pope and the other lawful pastors of the Church.

    10 Q. Who are the lawful pastors of the Church?
    A. The lawful pastors of the Church are the Roman Pontiff, that is, the Pope, who is Supreme Pastor, and the Bishops....

    45 Q. Who, then, are they who possess the teaching power in the Church?
    A. The teaching power in the Church is possessed by the Pope and the Bishops, and, dependent on them, by the other sacred ministers ...
    49 Q. To whom does the exercise of this power belong?
    A. The exercise of this power belongs solely to the Hierarchy, that is, to the Pope and to the Bishops subordinate to him.

    The Pope and the Bishops...]
    Sedeprivationism is not true at all and is word for word contrary to Traditional Church Doctrine. The power possessed by the Pope and the Hierarchy is a stable power, it cannot suddenly be lost indefinitely for 60+years, or the Church has defected, the promises of Christ has failed, and the guidance of the Holy Ghost has supposedly been withdrawn - all of which is impossible and heretical. The Catholic Church used to teach that the so-called Orthodox lacked jurisdiction and lost faith and thus their churches have defected. If the same allegedly happened to the Hierarchy of the Catholic Church, how is it not the implication of that wrong opinion that the Catholic Church defected? A wrong premise leads to that wrong conclusion. Thoughts?
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.


    Offline Matto

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    Re: Two brief refutations of the error of 61 year sedeprivationism.
    « Reply #1 on: August 20, 2019, 10:46:10 AM »
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  • If the same allegedly happened to the Hierarchy of the Catholic Church, how is it not the implication of that wrong opinion that the Catholic Church defected? A wrong premise leads to that wrong conclusion. Thoughts?
    It does seem like a defection, but we know that is impossible. Even from the stones of the earth . . . is that relevant here? Peter was The Rock (Is a rock a stone?).

    I am not a sedevacantist of any kind, nor a sedeprivationist. At times I have considered it. I think some of them are sheep and others are wolves. It seems like there are so many wolves among us.

    I am glad you are posting here, XavierSem, as you seem very pious. I thought you had the faith of a child when I read your posts on Suscipe Domnine and when you would post on the Orthodox forum trying to convert them to the Church. I hope you had great success in your attempts at conversion. But I am glad you are here in our enchanted garden. For some reason that is the nickname I came up with for Cathinfo. "The Enchanted Garden".
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Two brief refutations of the error of 61 year sedeprivationism.
    « Reply #2 on: August 20, 2019, 11:20:36 AM »
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  • God bless you, dear Matthew. I just sent you a PM. :) Enchanted Garden is a super cool nickname for Cathinfo.

    Some days I think there are much more important things than these controversies. Anyway, may Jesus and Mary bless us all and help us all get to Heaven. God bless you.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Two brief refutations of the error of 61 year sedeprivationism.
    « Reply #3 on: August 20, 2019, 11:35:02 AM »
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  • It strikes me as insipid for you to spiritually bully others the way you have in this little "demonstration" of yours.  Argue against it by all means, but the whole "let everyone who wishes to make progress in their spiritual lives flee from these errors" is just uncalled for, not to mention especially rich given that the whole ethos of the "Teaching Church" you've identified is one which encourages infidels and heretics to cling to the spiritual value found in their religions so that they can become good nonCatholics.  All of a sudden playing hardball with sedes while everyone else gets to sentimentally grow in spiritual error is just special pleading.  If you reject this notion of growing commensurately with one's non-Catholic religion (which you should), then you're just inadvertently adding fuel to the wrong fire since it casts doubt on the legitimacy of the body you've identified as the inclusive Catholic hierarchy.  And therefore gives us good reasons to ask the questions sedevacantism asks, rendering (at the very least) your notion that your rebuttal is "clear and certain" wholly dubious.
    .
    With regard to the necessity of a pope for appointments, this claim does not take into account what many sedevacantists have argued for years, which is that common error would suffice to validate the episcopal appointment of a man (supposing of course that the man were eligible for appointment).  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Two brief refutations of the error of 61 year sedeprivationism.
    « Reply #4 on: August 20, 2019, 11:41:00 AM »
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  • The first refutation starts off with Paul IV: "heretics have no offices", while the second refutation concludes: Hence "heretics have offices".

    Consequently, there must be some error in the refutations.


    A wrong premise leads to that wrong conclusion. Thoughts?

    Your second premise is: The Teaching Church has to be somewhere today.

    On the other hand, shepherds and teachers are promised usque ad consummatio saeculi (until to the consummation of the world). See Vatican Council, Pastor aeternis, first paragraph.

    Maybe the problem is, that the consummation of the world already has begun. See also: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi" 
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Two brief refutations of the error of 61 year sedeprivationism.
    « Reply #5 on: August 20, 2019, 11:57:37 AM »
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  •  :sleep:

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Two brief refutations of the error of 61 year sedeprivationism.
    « Reply #6 on: August 20, 2019, 12:06:25 PM »
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  • Correct, Struthio, it's a logical hot mess.

    First it uses the principles behind sedevacantism to refute sedeprivationism.

    Then it tries to refute sedevacantism.

    So if the second refutation holds, then it uproots the first ... or vice versa.

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Two brief refutations of the error of 61 year sedeprivationism.
    « Reply #7 on: August 22, 2019, 11:04:49 PM »
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  • Enchanted Garden...beautiful. 
    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: Two brief refutations of the error of 61 year sedeprivationism.
    « Reply #8 on: August 22, 2019, 11:51:58 PM »
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  • Even the NO priests are figuring it out:

    https://novusordowatch.org/2019/08/brazilian-priest-denounces-francis-antipope-false-prophet/

    It ain't too hard.

    A Pope is a Catholic. A non Catholic cannot be a Pope.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Two brief refutations of the error of 61 year sedeprivationism.
    « Reply #9 on: August 23, 2019, 01:08:56 AM »
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  • Quote
    Some days I think there are much more important things than these controversies. 
    XavierSem says the above, yet repeatedly starts posts on such controversies.   :facepalm:

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Two brief refutations of the error of 61 year sedeprivationism.
    « Reply #10 on: August 23, 2019, 01:12:12 AM »
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  • Am I the only one who thinks cuм Ex was unenforceable wishful thinking at best?  And that by trying to prevent a Protestant from becoming Pope, Paul IV unwittingly gave ammunition for a quasi-Protestant epistemology?  (BTWL: I don't see any way, any how that the bull fits the criteria for Vatican I infallibility) 


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Two brief refutations of the error of 61 year sedeprivationism.
    « Reply #11 on: August 23, 2019, 08:05:12 AM »
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    Am I the only one who thinks cuм Ex was unenforceable wishful thinking at best?
    cuм Ex was made law in 1559.  Sure it was enforceable.  You either follow it or you don't.  If you don't, then you're schismatic (just like you would be if you disobeyed any other papal law).
    .
    What is at debate is how often it was revised or had parts changed.  (I don't think it's ever been overturned totally).  I don't know if it was revised between 1559 and the early 1900s, but we know for a fact that Pope St Pius X made changes to the papal election laws and so did Pius XII (who basically reiterated St Pius X's changes).  cuм Ex would still be in force, just not fully.  Those who deny that St Pius X and Pius XII made changes to this law are dishonest and have an agenda.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Two brief refutations of the error of 61 year sedeprivationism.
    « Reply #12 on: August 23, 2019, 08:32:31 AM »
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  • Problem with a law like cuм Ex is that what happens if 10 Cardinals think a papal claimant is a heretic and 10 do not?  What determines the objective existence of this condition?  In that sense, it would indeed have been difficult to enforce.  Or, rather, enforce may not be the right word; it would have been very difficult to apply in practice in most scenarios.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Two brief refutations of the error of 61 year sedeprivationism.
    « Reply #13 on: August 23, 2019, 09:08:52 AM »
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  • Problem with a law like cuм Ex is that what happens if 10 Cardinals think a papal claimant is a heretic and 10 do not?  What determines the objective existence of this condition?  In that sense, it would indeed have been difficult to enforce.  Or, rather, enforce may not be the right word; it would have been very difficult to apply in practice in most scenarios.


    Some even generally call excommunications latae sententiae (sentence already passed) problematic. On the other hand: such is divine law. The fifth opinion, which St. Robert Bellarmine calls the true opinion is:

    Quote
    Finally, the Holy Fathers teach unanimously not only that heretics are outside of the Church, but also that they are ipso facto deprived of all ecclesiastical jurisdiction and dignity.

    [... the] Fathers, in affirming that heretics lose jurisdiction, did not cite any human law, which furthermore perhaps did not exist in relation to the matter, but argued on the basis of the very nature of heresy.
    https://www.fisheaters.com/bellarmine.html


    cuм Ex is divine law, which cannot be abrogated.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Two brief refutations of the error of 61 year sedeprivationism.
    « Reply #14 on: August 23, 2019, 09:09:24 AM »
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  • Problem with a law like cuм Ex is that what happens if 10 Cardinals think a papal claimant is a heretic and 10 do not?  What determines the objective existence of this condition?  In that sense, it would indeed have been difficult to enforce.  Or, rather, enforce may not be the right word; it would have been very difficult to apply in practice in most scenarios.
    There are more problems with cuм ex, one of them is, what if only one out of the 9 cardinals is a heretic, and it's the heretic cardinal that casts the deciding vote?

    cuм ex has no exceptions for ex-heretics, i.e. heretics who've abjured their heresy. If they were ever suspected of heresy, they're done, finito, excommunicated, lose their office, can't be promoted, can't vote, can't be elected. Today, among other heresies, that would mean anyone who was ever NO could not even be ordained a priest. Or how about a BOD or EENS diluters? Those three things cover pretty much the entire clergy for the last 50 years at least.

    If it could have been enforced back then I don't know, but if still in force today, there would be zero priests, bishops, cardinals, popes etc., - as the old poster AnEvenSeven, who was a dogmatic sede, believed.

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse