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Author Topic: Conditional Baptism?  (Read 1913 times)

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Offline Crayolcold

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Conditional Baptism?
« on: August 05, 2024, 02:09:21 PM »
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    • My fiancée and I were both baptized in the Novus Ordo as infants. Recently, I have begun researching the circuмstances regarding our baptisms to see if I can dig up anything that would relieve me of all positive doubt regarding the validity of the baptisms. 

    I was baptized by a priest who has been in the same diocese for the past 20+ years, and who is well known by a close friend of mine who attends the SSPX. This close friend assured me that this priest is "traditionally minded". Still, I emailed the priest in question, and he assured me that it would be "unthinkable" for him to not follow the form "word-for-word." 

    As for my fiancée, she was baptized by a Norbertine priest. I emailed this priest, specifically asking him about the matter and the form that he uses for baptisms. He simply replied that he said the correct words and that "it is the only way he knows how" to administer the Sacrament. He did not mention my concerns about the flowing of the water. So, I started reading through the weekly communique's that the Norbertines publish. These bulletins are rife with terms lauding new "inter-faith initiatives" and ecuмenism. 

    I intend to discuss the possibility of conditional baptism with the priest giving us marriage classes. That being said, my fiancée brought up her concerns with our prior a few years ago and was simply told that there is no need for her to be conditionally baptized, so I am not optimistic about the possibility. 

    What do you think of our situation? I believe that in my fiancée's case, there is a necessity to baptize her conditionally. I am not so sure about my own case. If we are denied a conditional baptism by our SSPX priest, how do I proceed? Do you think that my case warrants a conditional baptism? I would like to exhaust all avenues of possibility before making a decision on whether or not I should take it upon myself to be the minister for a conditional baptism.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Conditional Baptism?
    « Reply #1 on: August 05, 2024, 02:50:17 PM »
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    • First, do not administer baptism to your fiancee!! Doing so is a direment impediment. Don't do it.
    Other than that, if her priest always uses the correct matter and form - she's good to go.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

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    Offline Crayolcold

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    Re: Conditional Baptism?
    « Reply #2 on: August 05, 2024, 03:07:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 05, 2024, 02:50:17 PM
    First, do not administer baptism to your fiancee!! Doing so is a direment impediment. Don't do it.
    Other than that, if her priest always uses the correct matter and form - she's good to go.
    Thanks for the reply! I forgot about the spiritual relation impediments, thank you. Canon 1079 in the 1917 Code of Canon Law for reference.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Conditional Baptism?
    « Reply #3 on: August 05, 2024, 03:09:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Crayolcold on August 05, 2024, 03:07:49 PM
    Thanks for the reply! I forgot about the spiritual relation impediments, thank you. Canon 1079 in the 1917 Code of Canon Law for reference.
    Yes, that's it.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Conditional Baptism?
    « Reply #4 on: August 05, 2024, 04:49:38 PM »
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    • Do you know what kind of training these priests had? Were they ordained before the council?

    I don't think that you have more than speculative (negative) doubt here.
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Conditional Baptism?
    « Reply #5 on: August 05, 2024, 04:54:46 PM »
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    • Can you get a conditional Baptism?
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Conditional Baptism?
    « Reply #6 on: August 05, 2024, 05:03:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Crayolcold on August 05, 2024, 02:09:21 PM
    My fiancée and I were both baptized in the Novus Ordo as infants. Recently, I have begun researching the circuмstances regarding our baptisms to see if I can dig up anything that would relieve me of all positive doubt regarding the validity of the baptisms.

    I was baptized by a priest who has been in the same diocese for the past 20+ years, and who is well known by a close friend of mine who attends the SSPX. This close friend assured me that this priest is "traditionally minded". Still, I emailed the priest in question, and he assured me that it would be "unthinkable" for him to not follow the form "word-for-word."

    As for my fiancée, she was baptized by a Norbertine priest. I emailed this priest, specifically asking him about the matter and the form that he uses for baptisms. He simply replied that he said the correct words and that "it is the only way he knows how" to administer the Sacrament. He did not mention my concerns about the flowing of the water. So, I started reading through the weekly communique's that the Norbertines publish. These bulletins are rife with terms lauding new "inter-faith initiatives" and ecuмenism.

    I intend to discuss the possibility of conditional baptism with the priest giving us marriage classes. That being said, my fiancée brought up her concerns with our prior a few years ago and was simply told that there is no need for her to be conditionally baptized, so I am not optimistic about the possibility.

    What do you think of our situation? I believe that in my fiancée's case, there is a necessity to baptize her conditionally. I am not so sure about my own case. If we are denied a conditional baptism by our SSPX priest, how do I proceed? Do you think that my case warrants a conditional baptism? I would like to exhaust all avenues of possibility before making a decision on whether or not I should take it upon myself to be the minister for a conditional baptism.

    At the very least, you should have the traditional ceremonies of baptism (exorcisms and anointing) supplied. You did not get those with your Novus Ordo baptism. Here is what Aquinas has to say about those ceremonies:

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q71.A2

    While you are doing that, the priest can add conditional matter/form in an extra 10 seconds. The whole thing will take less than 15 minutes.

    Go to a Sede chapel. They should do it there.
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    Offline Crayolcold

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    Re: Conditional Baptism?
    « Reply #7 on: August 05, 2024, 05:06:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on August 05, 2024, 04:49:38 PM
    Do you know what kind of training these priests had? Were they ordained before the council?

    I don't think that you have more than speculative (negative) doubt here.
    Both priests were ordained after V2. Their formation, as a result, would have occurred during or after V2 in modern seminaries.

    For my own baptism, my reasoning is that the NO is a new religion and what the Church has always done for converts from a new religion (to my knowledge) is err on the side of caution and rebaptize if there is no positive proof that the baptism was done according to the correct form and matter.

    As for my fiancée, her mother vaguely remembers the ceremony and there seems to be some weird stuff going on here. The mother says that the priest kept talking about the entrance into the "community" and that many other babies were baptized in succession during this overarching ceremony. The mother also remembers my fiancée being baptized by a deacon -- but her certificate mentions baptized by "Father xxxxxx".

    In either case, in my mind, we were baptized in a new religion which we have seen botches baptisms time and time again. Neither my nor my fiancée's parents were particularly "good" Catholics at the time of our baptisms. As a result, as witnesses to the validity, they would have been useless, along with our godparents.
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    Offline Crayolcold

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    Re: Conditional Baptism?
    « Reply #8 on: August 05, 2024, 05:10:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on August 05, 2024, 05:03:06 PM
    At the very least, you should have the traditional ceremonies of baptism (exorcisms and anointing) supplied. You did not get those with your Novus Ordo baptism. Here is what Aquinas has to say about those ceremonies:

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q71.A2

    While you are doing that, the priest can add conditional matter/form in an extra 10 seconds. The whole thing will take less than 15 minutes.

    Go to a Sede chapel. They should do it there.
    Would the CMRI conditionally baptize us if we are getting married SSPX? They seem quite dogmatic about their position on non-attendance at SSPX chapels. I doubt that a priest from the CMRI would conditionally baptize us if they were aware that our marriage was to be celebrated at an SSPX chapel.
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Conditional Baptism?
    « Reply #9 on: August 05, 2024, 05:36:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Crayolcold on August 05, 2024, 05:06:55 PM
    Both priests were ordained after V2. Their formation, as a result, would have occurred during or after V2 in modern seminaries.

    For my own baptism, my reasoning is that the NO is a new religion and what the Church has always done for converts from a new religion (to my knowledge) is err on the side of caution and rebaptize if there is no positive proof that the baptism was done according to the correct form and matter.

    As for my fiancée, her mother vaguely remembers the ceremony and there seems to be some weird stuff going on here. The mother says that the priest kept talking about the entrance into the "community" and that many other babies were baptized in succession during this overarching ceremony. The mother also remembers my fiancée being baptized by a deacon -- but her certificate mentions baptized by "Father xxxxxx".

    In either case, in my mind, we were baptized in a new religion which we have seen botches baptisms time and time again. Neither my nor my fiancée's parents were particularly "good" Catholics at the time of our baptisms. As a result, as witnesses to the validity, they would have been useless, along with our godparents.

    Two of my children were baptized in the Novus Ordo. We have video of both ceremonies. The same priest added words to the canonical form. The exact same wrong words in both ceremonies. We provided the video to the SSPX priest and asked him to do a conditional baptism. He refused to conditionally baptize. He told us that he had looked it up and the changes to the form were not significant enough, in his opinion.

    Instead, the SSPX priest told us to contact the NO priest who performed the baptism to ask him if he had the correct "intention." I contacted the NO priest and told him the problem. He asked if we had videos of the ceremonies. I sent him the videos. He called back and apologized for his error. He had already talked to the NO bishop, who had authorized an immediate conditional baptism for each child.

    If you don't have video evidence of a correct baptism, it is reasonable to have doubts. And why take the chance?

    Bp. Sanborn recommends conditional baptism for unverifiable baptisms in the NO after 1990:

    https://inveritateblog.com/2023/09/01/can-novus-ordo-baptisms-be-trusted-as-valid/
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Conditional Baptism?
    « Reply #10 on: August 05, 2024, 05:41:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Crayolcold on August 05, 2024, 05:10:57 PM
    Would the CMRI conditionally baptize us if we are getting married SSPX? They seem quite dogmatic about their position on non-attendance at SSPX chapels. I doubt that a priest from the CMRI would conditionally baptize us if they were aware that our marriage was to be celebrated at an SSPX chapel.

    You won't know unless you ask. The CMRI priests that I know are not "dogmatic" about that at all. 
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Conditional Baptism?
    « Reply #11 on: August 06, 2024, 10:54:19 AM »
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    • You might like the discussion on conditional baptism in the following:

    https://www.wmreview.org/p/benson-conditional-sacraments


    Quote
    “What am I to think about Anglican sacraments? My friends tell me that I must be rebaptized, and that this is contradictory to the Church’s teaching on the subject. She teaches, I understand, that even lay-baptism is valid. Now I was baptized by a clergyman when I was a child. Why then need I be rebaptized? Then there are the other sacraments –”

    “One moment,” answers the priest, “let us settle baptism first. Can you tell me for certain that the clergyman baptized you properly? Of course if you can prove this, there will be no question of my baptizing you.”

    “What do you mean by ‘properly,’ father?”

    “Well, our LORD said ‘Water and the Spirit.’ Some people are very careless about water. I remember once seeing a clergyman sprinkle water towards a boy and a girl who stood about two yards from the font, and I doubt very much whether it even touched them. You see some Church of England clergy honestly do not believe that it matters very much; so of course they are not very particular about it. Why should they be? But in that case the candidates did not have done to them what our LORD meant when He said ‘Water.’ Of course some people differ from us; but the Catholic Church does not pretend to be more spiritual than JESUS CHRIST; she says ‘water’ because He did.”

    “I see. Well, I can’t prove that I was properly baptized. I have no witnesses, and the clergyman is dead.”
    “Then you must be baptized conditionally. I shall pour water on your head and say that if you are not baptized, I baptize you. If, after all, you were baptized, no harm is done; and if you were not, well, it will be true baptism. There is no question of repeating baptism. Do you understand?”

    “Yes; I understand, father.
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